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Old 02-25-2009, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
1,105 posts, read 4,561,361 times
Reputation: 633

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeeee22895 View Post
The way people have treated Michael Vick, you'd think he murdered someone. I'm probably the only person who thinks this, but I don't think you should go to prison for killing animals, unless they are someone else's property. Sure, you're not a nice person if you do it, but while Ray Lewis and other NFL stars associated with murders are walking free and even playing, I don't think Vick should be in the penitentiary.
I disagree totally with you. While I don't believe the punishment should be as severe as for human murderers, it very clearly should be a crime. What he did was against the law. People who commit acts of cruelty against animals are one step removed from treating people that way. That has been proven over and over and over again.

Edited to add: I mean if you go to prison for stealing something which is against the law why would you not go to prison for another crime that is also against the law?

 
Old 02-25-2009, 07:07 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
18,132 posts, read 15,542,204 times
Reputation: 17119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeeee22895 View Post
I suppose you're right, but nothing that happens in those places surprises me. I would bet that popular sentiment is some places would favor the animal. It seems like there was something that happened in Calfornia. My recollection is so hazy that I can't get anything when I google it. But I remember something about an animal, maybe a bear, attacking a woman. Both were injured. When donations came in for medical treatment, the animal received much more than the woman did. If anybody can clarify/correct details of this episode, please help.
This was a mountain lion attack in Auburn CA. It was in one of my posts on the Pets forum. The lion attacked, killed and drug the lady back to her cubs. 25 grand was raised for the orphan cubs after the cat was dealt with while 5 grand was raised for the husband and three children the woman left behind. The shop I worked at in Reno at the time donated 500 bucks of the money for the womans family. 10% of the total amount from 10 people. We were sickened by this. It's disgusting!
 
Old 02-25-2009, 07:09 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,253,830 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
This was a mountain lion attack in Auburn CA. It was in one of my posts on the Pets forum. The lion attacked, killed and drug the lady back to her cubs. 25 grand was raised for the orphan cubs after the cat was dealt with while 5 grand was raised for the husband and three children the woman left behind. The shop I worked at in Reno at the time donated 500 bucks of the money for the womans family. 10% of the total amount from 10 people. We were sickened by this. It's disgusting!
So you hate the lion cubs because they were orphaned and cared for?

That has nothing to do with the fact that people did not step up to the plate for this woman's family.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 07:26 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
18,132 posts, read 15,542,204 times
Reputation: 17119
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
So you hate the lion cubs because they were orphaned and cared for?

That has nothing to do with the fact that people did not step up to the plate for this woman's family.
You assume much. Did I say I "hated" the cubs? They were animals that were eating what their mother brought them. And it has EVERYTHING to do with people not stepping up to the plate for the ladies family. Oh but here comes PETA whining about the "cruelty" of killing the cat and whining about the bloody cubs. The lattter should have been destroyed, hate them or not. To bad to sad , bye bye. This incident was a diresct result of the former ban on hunting mountain lions in CA. They quickly (this incident was three years in) lost their fear of people and this was the result. Just to throw gasoline on a fire , If I was the womans husband I would take it as a personal task to shoot plumb DEAD every mountain lion I could until the day they planted me. . I shoot predators around here often. The occasional mountain lion among them. And I spare them no tears. And PETA can't stop me either. Here kitty kitty..........
 
Old 02-25-2009, 07:30 PM
 
1,336 posts, read 1,525,825 times
Reputation: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
Of course I could. And I would. My animal is worth the life of a human being who attempts to torture or kill her. To say that an animal's life is, de facto, less valuable than the life of a human being is tautological. It's the same structure of logic that used to say: The life of a black man is not of the same value as the life of a white man. ALL life has value. Period.

Let's reframe the question:

If Jeffrey Dahmer were attempting to torture or kill your beloved animal, would you allow him to do so rather than kill him to save the life of your animal?
OK, well, using your logic that all life is equal, you couldn't ever go for a walk because you might step on an ant. Or why aren't chicken lives equal to dog lives? I think it's a very slippery logical slope to go comparing animals. I say you elevate humans, and let all animals be of equal but lesser legal value. Your example of comparing whites vs. blacks as an example of my logic is invalid because both are humans. Both should be equally elevated.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
1,761 posts, read 1,706,832 times
Reputation: 2541
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
Of course I could. And I would. My animal is worth the life of a human being who attempts to torture or kill her. To say that an animal's life is, de facto, less valuable than the life of a human being is tautological. It's the same structure of logic that used to say: The life of a black man is not of the same value as the life of a white man. ALL life has value. Period.

Let's reframe the question:

If Jeffrey Dahmer were attempting to torture or kill your beloved animal, would you allow him to do so rather than kill him to save the life of your animal?
I am of a similar mind. When I was about 16 years old a neighborhood kid came over to my house during hunting season with his 12 gauge shotgun over his shoulder. He was not a friend of mine...but we rode the school bus together during our younger years. Anyway, my dearly beloved pet cat was sitting near the garage in the sun enjoying the fall air. He aimed the gun at her and asked me "what would you do if I shot your cat". I calmly told him that he'd be next and I'd not rest until the deed was done. He didn't shoot...and I'm not sure if he even would have....but I remember thinking at that moment that regardless of the fact that my cat is an animal....this individual (POS actually) is worth much less than an animal to me and society in general than my cat who was a kind, loving and welcome addition to our planet.

Years later I remember hearing that this neighbor kid had died of a cocaine over dose. I also remember thinking, and I'm not necessarily proud of this, that he finally got what was coming to him....it just took a few years. Karma is a tough thing to deal with when you're in the debit column.

Human life is valuable....but a better statement is that ALL life is valuable. We as humans pass the laws so of course we place more value on human life than all other....geez, go figure :-) I think the sooner we realize that animals in some ways are more intellegent and definately less egotistical than we are and that we can learn something from them....the better off we'll all be in the long run.

Very few if any animals kill anything unless they need to eat it....we humans seem to have a better mastery of "sport" killing. I am NOT against hunting having been one in my younger years. However, the last game animal I shot (~30 years ago) that was laying there alive with eyes still open...well that was the end of my hunting years. I just remember thinking that I was the biggest ass the world has ever seen to that poor wounded animal. It's not like I was starving out in the woods....just shooting/hunting for fun. And yes, before anyone asks, I do eat meat....still working on that one.

Just my two cents worth....

Last edited by jasper1372; 02-25-2009 at 08:14 PM..
 
Old 02-25-2009, 08:15 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,253,830 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
You assume much. Did I say I "hated" the cubs? They were animals that were eating what their mother brought them. And it has EVERYTHING to do with people not stepping up to the plate for the ladies family. Oh but here comes PETA whining about the "cruelty" of killing the cat and whining about the bloody cubs. The lattter should have been destroyed, hate them or not. To bad to sad , bye bye. This incident was a diresct result of the former ban on hunting mountain lions in CA. They quickly (this incident was three years in) lost their fear of people and this was the result. Just to throw gasoline on a fire , If I was the womans husband I would take it as a personal task to shoot plumb DEAD every mountain lion I could until the day they planted me. . I shoot predators around here often. The occasional mountain lion among them. And I spare them no tears. And PETA can't stop me either. Here kitty kitty..........
Why should the cubs have been destroyed?

Your attitude is despicable--but a great example of the stupidity of Americans about how ecology works, and the extent to which we depend on a healthy land in order to survive ourselves.

This "incident," I would bet, is the "direct result" of human beings encroaching on mountain lion habitat, and then crying and whining because mountain lions live there. Utter stupidity. Predators serve a crucial importance in terms of habitat and ecosystem health. Kill off the predators and you throw the entire balance out of whack, and the whole system begins to disintegrate.

The problem is not the mountain lions. The problem is stupid, ****ing human beings who think they can just slash and burn their way through every natural habitat there is--until there's nothing left. No clean air, no clean water, no animals. Nothing. All so the Beavises and Buttheads, like yourself, can stomp around, screaming and yelling and killing off animals.

I feel sorry for the woman who died--and I especially feel sorry for her family. But who in their right mind goes jogging or walking or whatever she was doing, where there are mountain lions???? Hating the animals is bull****. It's like the mob mentality which results with circus animals: that "rogue" elephant who, after years of abuse, finally loses his mind and kills his trainer, and all the idiotic Americans want the animal killed.

No wonder our country is in the toilet. It's filled with bunch of brainless maniacs.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 08:20 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,253,830 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeeee22895 View Post
OK, well, using your logic that all life is equal, you couldn't ever go for a walk because you might step on an ant. Or why aren't chicken lives equal to dog lives? I think it's a very slippery logical slope to go comparing animals. I say you elevate humans, and let all animals be of equal but lesser legal value. Your example of comparing whites vs. blacks as an example of my logic is invalid because both are humans. Both should be equally elevated.
Tautology.

No, my example of comparing whites and blacks is not "invalid," because that is PRECISELY the logic that was used to oppress blacks. And women, actually.

A tautology is a form of reasoning in which the conclusion depends on the premise, with no testing of the premise whatsoever. Example:

Premise: All women are stupid.

Case: My sister is a woman.

Conclusion: My sister is stupid.

or

Premise: All animals should not have the same protection under the law as do humans.

Case: My dog is an animal.

Conclusion: My dog should therefore not have the same protection under the law as do humans.

Problem: Where's the proof that all women are stupid or that all animals should not have the same protection under the law as do humans?

And I'm afraid that "just cuz" won't cut it.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 08:22 PM
 
4,538 posts, read 4,797,021 times
Reputation: 1548
Actually, yes.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 08:27 PM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,053,009 times
Reputation: 6194
No reason to kill them and get in trouble yourself - better to make this a decisive turning point in their lives. Wound them real good someplace that will hurt for the rest of their life and never completely heal - kneecap? hand, so they cant hurt more animals? - and then call the police to come get them. Then figure out ways to make the rest of their life miserable. Flagrrrl mentioned Charlie Wilson's War - that's an elegant solution (and I hope it's true!).
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