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Tried to. He's been all over the board with the issue. And it's a tough one. Best as I can tell, his official stance *today* is that he supports charter schools but he does not support school vouchers for low income kids. Which means that the kids currently on vouchers at Sidwell (and there are some) will probably need to find a new school soon. Guess I answered my own question. Sorry to trouble you.
No trouble at all. I'm glad that you were able to educate yourself. From your reports, it seems then that the President might see eye to eye on the matter of vouchers with DCPS Chancellor Rhee.
As for the handful of voucher students currently attending Sidwell Friends, the base tuition there is approximately four times the $7500 maximum voucher value, so perhaps their Financial Aid Office will be able to step in and cover this extra little bit also, should the DC pilot program not be renewed.
Well, this objection falls flat as soon as you realize that not all private schools teach only creationism.
No, it plainly stands so long as some schools do, and some parents choose to send their children to those schools for that reason. It's a little early in the game to be experiencing total logical meltdowns.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
I see. You're one of the 'we can't save them all, so we won't save any' crowd.
No, I'm one of the 'I want my money back if you can't deliver what you promised' crowd. Nearly two decades of large-scale voucher experimentation has produced no evidence for significant systemic change of any sort.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Pell Grants and CCDBG funding, etc. used at private institutions are okay, but school vouchers aren't. That's hypocritical.
We're using Pell Grants for K-12 education now??? Our public school systems are serving as licensed child care providers??? I guess I better start reading the paper more closely...
Maybe the kids in the Washington D.C. area aren't interested in a great education? Sometimes, no matter what you throw at an educational system, kids will p iss it away if their parents don't care. I think our educational system needs to be revamped on many levels... but more importantly, parents need to stop being so freakin' lazy when it comes to education for their kids - they need to play an active role and not just drop their kids off so the school can babysit.
The two best predictors of a child's overall performance in school are the income and educational levels of his or her parents. There are a lot of low-income, low-education parents out there. Telling tham that they're all too lazy when many of them are working a day job and then a night job six days a week just to keep those roof and food things going on is probably not going to be a productive strategy.
The Friedman Foundation is so noted for its biases that this report must begin with a plea to the reader to ignore the fact that they are biased, and instead take the report on faith unless the reader himself can identify some source of methodological error. As if the public at large were sufficiently well trained in statistical analysis to identify such errors, had access to all of the original data sources, and was willing to invest the time necessary to replicate the study, which is itself an analysis of seven other studies.
Go ahead - have at it. Find the methodological flaws. I'm sure the analysis' author would point you to the full empirical studies upon your request. You could contact the studies' authors with any further questions.
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From then reviewing the actual study on Washington DC that this report analyzes, it is immediately evident that the "better racial mixing" that the quote above claims arises universally from there being more white kids in the participating private school classrooms. Many more in fact.
Without the voucher students themselves, there would actually be well fewer than half the number of minority students in these private schools as are found in the city's public schools. So, I suppose it's fair to say that if you are a minority student coming from a public school that was 70% minority and ending up in a private school that is 70% white, you have moved to a "less segregated" environment, but wouldn't it have been a little more direct simply to have said that the particpating private schools are much more heavily white than are the public schools from which voucher students transfer?
You're complaining about providing all students access to a more demographically diverse education? Why? The greater diversity and academic rigor benefits all the students. Why would you advocate maintaining a racially and socioeconomically segregated education system?
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And I notice you didn't include with your quote this part...
The studies reviewed below, while they use valid empirical methods, do not answer all questions relevant to vouchers and segregation. In particular, the available evidence is only descriptive.
Descriptive? This is a code word for admitting that there is no causality to be found here, only correlation.
So, do you posit that the same levels of diversity in the private schools found in those studies would also exist without the use of vouchers? If so, please provide evidence of that.
No, it plainly stands so long as some schools do, and some parents choose to send their children to those schools for that reason.
Do you have any actual figures on that? Can you cite any studies that have determined how many families opted for school vouchers so that they can send their children to a school that doesn't teach evolution?
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No, I'm one of the 'I want my money back if you can't deliver what you promised' crowd.
Great - that also applies to tax payers and the failing public schools that take their money, right?
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Nearly two decades of large-scale voucher experimentation has produced no evidence for significant systemic change of any sort.
If you're talking about public school systems, you're right - there's been very little change for the better. That's all the more reason to let families opt out and have the money follow the student elsewhere.
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We're using Pell Grants for K-12 education now??? Our public school systems are serving as licensed child care providers??? I guess I better start reading the paper more closely...
Private religious child care/preschool centers receive public funding for students, as do private religious colleges and universities. K-12 students are the only demographic unlucky enough to be trapped in public institutions by the anti-voucher crowd regardless of whether or not they're learning.
The two best predictors of a child's overall performance in school are the income and educational levels of his or her parents. There are a lot of low-income, low-education parents out there. Telling tham that they're all too lazy when many of them are working a day job and then a night job six days a week just to keep those roof and food things going on is probably not going to be a productive strategy.
I get what your saying, but I'm not talking about physical laziness... I'm speaking of mental laziness - parents skirting their responsibilities. Not playing an active role, not caring about their kids education - that is lazy no matter how much a person works. Parents contribute to the decline of schools by not caring (no matter their own education level) - schools can only do so well without good parenting (parental involvement), w/ or w/o vouchers. That's all I'm saying....
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,816,224 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Horse
Vouchers is nothing more than a not too stealth effort supported by religionist to get their hand in the taxpayers pocket. This is nothing but a right wing effort to begin to elimate public secular education...Period. So any of you out there supporting vouchers that are not right wing wild eyed religionist and you are buying the arguments, think again. More often than not these voucher drum beaters are the ones that want science classes to teach that God reached out his hands and created all in 6-24 hour days rested on the seventh, then grabbed Adams Rib just b4 the snake tempted Eve from the apple tree.
In Texas, if a school is rated academically unacceptable the parent can demand a school change, the district must grant it, and if the requested new school is within district lines then the district must provide transportation. Other districts can accept students across district lines from A/U schools. The money follows the student.
I do not remember the actual number, 3 or 4 years I think of U/A, the state takes over the school, fires all educational staff, administrative staff and rehires the ones they want both inside and outside, sometimes even changes the name of the school. Both the Jr high and HS in my serving area is facing that as I type.
I live in a pocket of kidless, private school folks. If they ever get the schools straightened out the real estate prices here will rise dramatically.
If this is true, I can live with that policy but in too many places working parents have NO options- a BAD school or NO school. Even when they give you the right to transfer public to public, the new school almost always declines the transfer saying they are "too full".
The problem is that, with the unions (and I am pro union BTW), it is almost impossible to get rid of bad employees and teachers. Bad teachers tend to end up in bad schools because in bad schools most of the students and parents don't really give a damn about the school or their kids- which is why the school is bad. But for parents who DO care, they need other options.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,816,224 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommabear2
I get what your saying, but I'm not talking about physical laziness... I'm speaking of mental laziness - parents skirting their responsibilities. Not playing an active role, not caring about their kids education - that is lazy no matter how much a person works. Parents contribute to the decline of schools by not caring (no matter their own education level) - schools can only do so well without good parenting (parental involvement), w/ or w/o vouchers. That's all I'm saying....
A few parents are not going to make a damn bit of difference in an uncaring failing dangerous school. They will make ZERO difference when 90% of the students there are gang members and their parents worthless human slime. You DO know there are a FEW parents that do want better for their kids don't you? And they cannot win against those odds and they cannot afford to move elsewhere. They have parents who have been charged with FELONIES here for trying to simply enroll their kids in other schools. Mothers who will face 5 years in prison and be scared for life with a felony record for trying anything they could to get their kids out of public schools that are HORRIBLE and DANGEROUS in Clayton County. In fact they are so bad that they are not even accredited! Even if you manage to graduate without being shot or stabbed, you cannot get into any college because your diploma if frigging worthless! And 95% of the students and teachers in Clayton are worthless too. The other 10% deserve options other than having their kids cosigned to a life of failure because the school board drew a line around their house.
And the thing that bothers me is this- this is alot about racism. This is alot about white people who do not want to see black children educated. That is why they fled to the suburbs and the Catholic schools to begin with. And they don't want poor Negro children following them- even if they are good students and the parent(s) is involved fully.
And the teachers that gripe about it the most are a pretty sorry group of people too. Especially when one finds out that most of them send their OWN kids to private or suburban schools.
Mother gets felony for out-of-district student | ajc.com (http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/henry/stories/2009/02/07/felony_henry_school.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_news tab&imw=Y - broken link)
Wouldn't it be great to see a referendum vote on school vouchers? They seem to have worked well in Milwaukee and several countries in Europe. Would parents vote to have a choice on schools for their kids?
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,061,830 times
Reputation: 36027
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl
As you Rs keep saying, it's not the president's money.
My school taxes on both of my houses are paid to the local school board.
This is not a federal issue, but Obama might want to look at the waste of "No Child Left Behind" policies.
BTW, I have no kids and have no problem paying my school taxes for the PUBLIC sector.
Think education is expensive, try ignorance.
We have already tried ignorance with the failing public school system and are paying for it dearly. We need school choice!
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