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Old 03-21-2007, 02:15 PM
 
452 posts, read 1,132,996 times
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Quote:
From this, you derive the statement that the car is only going to last 100,000 miles? The battery is only on e component, and is a component universally recognized as a consumable, like tires and windshield wipers. The gasoline engine component and the electric motor component will certainly last much longer than 100,000 miles on average.
The Prius is based on 100,000 miles because the battery is only expected to last that long. If you base the Prius on 300,000 miles like the hummer THAN you have to also add 2 more batteries to the equation. ADDING 2 more batteries that are the cause of so much contamination...the vast amount of energy and resources that are used to ship the battery around the world would make this totally unfair. The Fair way is to base the Prius on 100,000 miles which is the expected life of the battery. The vehicle itself will last longer than 100,000 miles. Yes, the battery is only one component...it is the one component that is the cause of so much contamination, resources, and energy.
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Old 03-21-2007, 03:23 PM
 
Location: The Bronx
1,590 posts, read 1,671,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chloedog View Post
Yes, the battery is only one component...it is the one component that is the cause of so much contamination, resources, and energy.
They can recycle the nickel.

I knew a plater who used to plate his nickel waste out onto steel wool, then sell the resulting scrap for good money. It sells for about 10 bucks a pound.
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Old 03-21-2007, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,508,522 times
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You cannot base the entire cost of the vehicle on the cost of the battery. Your data is still faulty. There is no way to escape it. If you don't get it yet, there is nothing I can say that will illustrate it for you.
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Old 03-21-2007, 10:39 PM
 
452 posts, read 1,132,996 times
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Quote:
pslOldTimer
You cannot base the entire cost of the vehicle on the cost of the battery. Your data is still faulty. There is no way to escape it. If you don't get it yet, there is nothing I can say that will illustrate it for you.
You are the one that doesn’t get it. I am not basing the cost of the vehicle on just the battery. The nickel IN THE BATTERY is the cause of so much more pollution than that of anything in a hummer. It takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer. The Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury(look at the article in regards to the plants environmental impact). The plant that produces the hummer was also taken into consideration.

The journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, FINALIZING the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery.

Do you get it now, the pollution that is caused by producing and shipping ONE battery is what renders this vehicle anti environmentally friendly. Just about every gas burning engine is expected to last 300,000 miles. I own a 93 F-150 that currently has 260,000 miles on it. Nothing on the hummer is shipped around the world.

I never said that the battery wasn’t recyclable.
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:03 AM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,508,522 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by chloedog
The 100,000 miles is based on Toyota's own account of the Prius lasting that long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chloedog
Its in the article...The battery is only expected to last 100,000 miles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chloedog
The Prius is based on 100,000 miles because the battery is only expected to last that long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chloedog
The Fair way is to base the Prius on 100,000 miles which is the expected life of the battery.
How many different ways are you going to try to spin this thing?

The article you referenced stated the following:
Quote:
The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
Please note that they are talking about the cost of the entire vehicle -- not the cost of the battery. I stand behind my statements. You continue to duck, twist and spin.

Last edited by pslOldTimer; 03-22-2007 at 02:11 AM..
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Topeka, KS
1,560 posts, read 7,150,820 times
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Actually chloedog's not talking about the cost of the vehicle. They're talking about all of the costs of the vehicle, from the electricity used to run the coke machine in Japan, to the cost of gas to run the crane that picks up the shipping container of raw nickel in Europe, to the cost of the "free" coffee at your local dealership, to the "recovery costs" you pay when you replace your tires and oil, to the additional nickel's worth of gas you burned this morning running he A/C on your way to work, when it's a lovely 65 outside. The TOTAL cost of the vehicle. You seen to keep focusing only on your small part of the world, what does the car cost "you". Not what does the car cost all of us from start to finish.
This doesn’t mean that hybrids, for example, are a "bad choice." That is NOT the intention of the research. What it does mean, however, is that a 2005 hybrid uses less gasoline and produced fewer tailpipe emissions, but costs society significantly more in overall energy costs than conventional Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles.

Example: If the consumer lives in the Los Angeles Basin, reducing smog and contending with some of the country’s highest fuel costs make a hybrid a solid and logical vehicle choice. What consumers need to know, however, is that the LA Basin and the Los Angelino’s wallet might benefit, the energy demands and pollution are exported somewhere else - either to the country of manufacture or to the states where the eventual vehicle will be disposed through recycling or scrap.
from http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/ (broken link) from the 15 MB document found in http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/Dust%20Zip%20Folder.zip (broken link)

As to you comments about life in miles of the vehicles, the document clearly states.
Finally, the "Estimated Life in Miles" is based on historical data as well as manufacturer information and real-world life-cycle information that average the miles over comparable historic models as well as a CNW analysis of repair and replacement as well as scrappage records. In effect, the miles figure here is a realistic approximation of the likely life-cycle of the individual models.

Note that there are clearly many consumers who have driven further and clocked more miles for some of these vehicles, but this information takes into account historic accident and disposal records for individual demographic groups and how long these vehicles are likely to last.

....

It should also be pointed out that on a Dust to Dust basis, the Estimated Miles doesn’t mean the vehicle is "used up" and has no life remaining, only that this is the approximate mileage at the time it is removed from the streets as a daily-use vehicle and sent for disposal as either a source of parts or eventually scrapped.

...

The same is true with early hybrids. As we’ll see later, repair costs - and thus energy expenditures -- are extremely high for current hybrid models. That in turn will mean a shorter overall life cycle before being sent to the recycling and/or scrap industries.
I think it's clear you two are arguing about different aspects of the same object. One in looking at the total overall costs from cradle to grave for the vehicles, and one is looking at just their cost of ownership. One of the basic steps when making an argument is to start with the common ground. Something that is often missed in forums.
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:35 AM
 
452 posts, read 1,132,996 times
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Quote:
GoPadge
FINALY SOMEONE WHO CAN READ THE ARTICLE AND UNDERSTAND IT

When you take into account ALL aspects of building and manufacturing a Prius...It has a more negative affect on the environment than that of a hummer.
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:47 AM
 
Location: The Bronx
1,590 posts, read 1,671,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoPadge View Post
What consumers need to know, however, is that the LA Basin and the Los Angelino’s wallet might benefit, the energy demands and pollution are exported somewhere else - either to the country of manufacture or to the states where the eventual vehicle will be disposed through recycling or scrap.[/indent]

Note that there are clearly many consumers who have driven further and clocked more miles for some of these vehicles, but this information takes into account historic accident and disposal records for individual demographic groups and how long these vehicles are likely to last.


It should also be pointed out that on a Dust to Dust basis, the Estimated Miles doesn’t mean the vehicle is "used up" and has no life remaining, only that this is the approximate mileage at the time it is removed from the streets as a daily-use vehicle and sent for disposal as either a source of parts or eventually scrapped.
In Europe, they have something called the "End of Life Directive." It's something that lots of people in the plating and related industries (includes me) are concerned about.

Among other things, it severely restricts the usage of lead, cadmium, mercury, and hexavalent chromium in consumer products. The idea is that, when whatever product is scrapped, the toxics are going to wind up in a landfill, and then the environment.

The "overall impact issue" is something we're hotly debating. A lot of "eco-friendly" processes produce products that do not stand up to use as well as the good old nasty stuff. So, is more harm done from that bit of hexchrome on a part...or by having to replace something because it rusted years before you might have otherwise...and having to fabricate it all over again?

A lot of people who call themselves environmentalists think these issues are simple. They're not.
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Old 03-22-2007, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,508,522 times
Reputation: 1116
I fully understand the point of the article. In the interests of keeping the posts within a reasonable length, I have referred to the cost over the lifespan of the vehicle (a phrase used in the article), rather than "total cost of all of the energy, components, etc. etc. etc" over the lifespan of the vehicle. Repeatedly, Chloedog has referred to the lifespan of the battery, and at one point stated that if a total of 3 batteries were used in the lifepan, the total cost would be tripled. Clearly, that is wrong, and clearly, I was much closer to the intent of the article than Chloedog.

My dispute is from the initial basis of the article. There have not been enough hybrid vehicles removed from service (other than prematurely from wrecks) and they have not existed long enough to establish a lifespan. Any projection of the lifespan, by anyone, is a guess.

I accuse the writers of the article of sufficient bias to have rendered their guess in favor of their theory.

Doing some research on the life expectancy of a hybrid car, I came across this quote:
Quote:
The standard warranty on hybrid batteries usually runs between 80,000 and 100,000 miles. Great advances in battery technology since 2000 have raised the life expectancy to a respectable level in 2007. Taxi services using hybrid-only cars are springing up everywhere...now THAT should raise the eyebrows of hybrid naysayers. The warranty for battery life may be at 100,000 miles, however, taxi services are seeing 200,000 to 300,000 miles with absolutely no degradation in battery performance. And we're talking several large taxi fleets in New York City!
http://www.articleonramp.com/Article.cfm?ID=2512 (broken link)

Further, the Prius battery is warrantied for 100,000 miles. To day that it will fail at this point would be similar to saying that today's cars will be at the end of their useful life at the expiration of their 36,000 mile warranty.

The underlying figures for the article are wrong, and the article is therefore flawed, biased and slanted as I originally stated.

Last edited by pslOldTimer; 03-22-2007 at 09:46 AM..
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Old 03-22-2007, 09:48 AM
 
Location: The Bronx
1,590 posts, read 1,671,723 times
Reputation: 277
The battery life is apt to have something to do with the charging/discharge cycle. Similar behavior is seen in Ni/Cd's.
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