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Old 03-22-2007, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Topeka, KS
1,560 posts, read 7,145,724 times
Reputation: 513

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pslOldTimer View Post
Repeatedly, Chloedog has referred to the lifespan of the battery, and at one point stated that if a total of 3 batteries were used in the lifepan, the total cost would be tripled.
You have a valid point that Chloedog's calculations are off.

Quote:
Doing some research on the life expectancy of a hybrid car, I came across this quote:

Quote:
The standard warranty on hybrid batteries usually runs between 80,000 and 100,000 miles. Great advances in battery technology since 2000 have raised the life expectancy to a respectable level in 2007. Taxi services using hybrid-only cars are springing up everywhere...now THAT should raise the eyebrows of hybrid naysayers. The warranty for battery life may be at 100,000 miles, however, taxi services are seeing 200,000 to 300,000 miles with absolutely no degradation in battery performance. And we're talking several large taxi fleets in New York City!
http://www.articleonramp.com/Article.cfm?ID=2512 (broken link)
I don't currently have the time to read the article, but I'll accept you premise at least initially. My question back to you, is that how did they measure the battery performance to guarantee there was no degradation?

Quote:
Further, the Prius battery is warrantied for 100,000 miles. To day that it will fail at this point would be similar to saying that today's cars will be at the end of their useful life at the expiration of their 36,000 mile warranty.
That is true to an extent. But the Hummer would have a lower cost of maintenance, even out to 300,000 miles.

Quote:
The underlying figures for the article are wrong, and the article is therefore flawed, biased and slanted as I originally stated.
You've offered no proof that the underlying figures are wrong, just your supposition. Therefore your conclusion is without merit.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,503,729 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoPadge View Post
You've offered no proof that the underlying figures are wrong, just your supposition. Therefore your conclusion is without merit.
That does not follow. I agree I have offered no proof, but it is entirely possible that my conclusion IS valid. You would have to prove my supposition wrong to conclude it has no merit, and you have not done that. In the absence of proof either way (which I already suggested was impossible to reliably obtain given the newness of hybrids), my supposition has as much merit as any.

Additionally, I provided empirical evidence that my supposition was correct. The article failed to offer any evidence.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,281 posts, read 2,367,268 times
Reputation: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by chloedog View Post
The journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, FINALIZING the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery.

Do you get it now, the pollution that is caused by producing and shipping ONE battery is what renders this vehicle anti environmentally friendly. Just about every gas burning engine is expected to last 300,000 miles. I own a 93 F-150 that currently has 260,000 miles on it. Nothing on the hummer is shipped around the world.
Has anyone actually considered the actual share of the expense for the battery? The information above implies that it all the actions/expenses are solely for the Prius battery. Is the nickel mined only for the battery? Is the nickel for the battery the only items on the “massive” container ships? At the refinery, are the only products the prius battery? Shipping to Japan, is it only the batteries being shipped there? To the US, are the ships only transporting prius batteries again? The opinion piece, which that is what the article really is, tries to lead the reader into thinking that the nickel for the battery the only product being moved around and responsible for all the environmental concerns. Do you happen to know what else is on those “massive” contatiner ships?

Also, all the items on a Hummer, are they all produced and installed in the US? Every little component, even in the radio? There is a difference between where an item is produced and where it is installed. I’m sure if someone wanted to take the time, they can trace every little item that was produced outside of the US and shipped here to be installed in the hummer, via massive container ships. But luckily the prius battery is the only one incurring the cost and blame, per the article.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Topeka, KS
1,560 posts, read 7,145,724 times
Reputation: 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by pslOldTimer View Post
That does not follow. I agree I have offered no proof, but it is entirely possible that my conclusion IS valid. You would have to prove my supposition wrong to conclude it has no merit, and you have not done that. In the absence of proof either way (which I already suggested was impossible to reliably obtain given the newness of hybrids), my supposition has as much merit as any.

Additionally, I provided empirical evidence that my supposition was correct. The article failed to offer any evidence.
Yes it is entirely possible that your conclusion is valid. And it is equally possible that the conclusions of the article that chloedog's linked to, is equally valid. And no, I don't have to disprove you supposition. In an agrument it is up to you to offer proof. The "evidence" you did offer was anecdotal at best with no data to back it up.

The article chloedog linked to, did fail to offer evidence. Which is why I took the time to research the author, and to provide quotes from the original source and a link and I believe the 400+ page document which provides plenty of data to support their claims.

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/ (broken link) from the 15 MB document found in http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/Dust%20Zip%20Folder.zip (broken link)
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:58 PM
 
Location: The Bronx
1,590 posts, read 1,668,135 times
Reputation: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
Has anyone actually considered the actual share of the expense for the battery? The information above implies that it all the actions/expenses are solely for the Prius battery. Is the nickel mined only for the battery? Is the nickel for the battery the only items on the “massive” container ships? At the refinery, are the only products the prius battery? Shipping to Japan, is it only the batteries being shipped there? To the US, are the ships only transporting prius batteries again? The opinion piece, which that is what the article really is, tries to lead the reader into thinking that the nickel for the battery the only product being moved around and responsible for all the environmental concerns. Do you happen to know what else is on those “massive” contatiner ships?

Also, all the items on a Hummer, are they all produced and installed in the US? Every little component, even in the radio? There is a difference between where an item is produced and where it is installed. I’m sure if someone wanted to take the time, they can trace every little item that was produced outside of the US and shipped here to be installed in the hummer, via massive container ships. But luckily the prius battery is the only one incurring the cost and blame, per the article.
I don't want to argue about it - and, I did not study the piece. But it looks like one of those propaganda pieces so often seen from the environmentalist "side." When I used to work out in Silicon Valley, there was this outfit called the "Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition" that stated, ad nauseum, "There are non toxic substitutes for all of these poisonous things they're using...yadda, yadda, yadda."

That is pure malarkey. I don't like it any better when the anti-environmentalist "side" does this sort of thing.
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,503,729 times
Reputation: 1116
I could not find numbers for the domestic content of a Hummer. However, the average domestic content for GM vehicles is 74%, and the percentage of domestic content for the H2's underlying Tahoe is 65%. ( http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/docs/lfi-domestic-content.pdf (broken link) )

The Hummer H2's engine is a Vortec 6000, also known as an LQ4, which is produced both in a Michigan plant and in Silao, Mexico. While it makes more sense from a logistics point of view that the Michigan engines would be used in the Hummer, it's entirely possible that the Mexican engines are used at least part of the time.

I don't believe there is any vehicle made in America with 100% domestic content.
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,503,729 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoPadge View Post
. And no, I don't have to disprove you supposition. In an agrument it is up to you to offer proof.
Once again, that does not follow. You are the one who suggested it was without merit; therefore it is up to you to supply the proof of your supposition.
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Topeka, KS
1,560 posts, read 7,145,724 times
Reputation: 513
I'm still waiting on you to offer your proof that the article is flawed.
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,503,729 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoPadge View Post
I'm still waiting on you to offer your proof that the article is flawed.
And, I already stated that proof is most likely impossible given the newness of hybrids. I have provided empirical evidence, which is more than anyone else has done. You also cannot prove my supposition is without merit. I win based on my empirical evidence.
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Old 03-22-2007, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Hopewell New Jersey
1,398 posts, read 7,704,453 times
Reputation: 1069
[quote=pslOldTimer;484869]That does not follow. I agree I have offered no proof, but it is entirely possible that my conclusion IS valid. You would have to prove my supposition wrong to conclude it has no merit, and you have not done that. In the absence of proof either way (which I already suggested was impossible to reliably obtain given the newness of hybrids), my supposition has as much merit as any.

Let's pretend I claim that I can flap my arms and fly only when no one can see me etc. "You would have to prove my supposition wrong to conclude it has no merit," Is that how science is done these days ?? If something can't be proven wrong it is likely to be true ?? Must the new Al Gore school of thinking.

Anecdotal exceptions aside the engineering world applies numerous methodologies to determine the reliability of a widget long before it rolls off the production line. The "newness" of something means nothing. Wether it be the space shuttle,a widebody airbuss, a heart pace maker or the drive motor of your DVD player many folks have spent a lot of time calculating FITS,MTBFs etc etc.
Japanese manufactures treat Dr. E. Demings work on the topic as gospel. The fact that you and I don't have access to their internal projected statistical data is not relevent. The Japanese are also very good bussiness people. It's foolish to confuse design/engineering issues with bussiness/ecomomic issues. The two certainly have an influence upon one another but they are seperate matters with more often than not very opposing goals.
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