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Old 03-22-2007, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Topeka, KS
1,560 posts, read 7,155,321 times
Reputation: 513

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pslOldTimer View Post
I don't care if it's 4,000 pages; you chose the pertinent quote from it, and that quote supports my claims -- or, at least, does not disprove them.

I just followed all of the links included in your link, and the original article is glowing praise for the hybrid. (They are also nowhere near the size you indicated, but I can't quote them here in their entirety because of copywrite rules).

Someone has poor reading comprehension skills. The original article used the tests from Toyota to indicate the positive life span of the battery -- AT LEAST 150,000 miles, and possibly as long as the useful life of the vehicle. It is obvious to anyone with basic reading comprehension skills that Toyota believes the useful life will be BEYOND 150,000 miles. The hilarious thing is that these articles and blogs actully SUPPORT my statements about the lifespan of the Prius.

I don't think I have to comment any further...
Here is the link to the original data that the article chloedog posted is based on. http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/Dust%20Zip%20Folder.zip (broken link)

The article chloedog posted has some discrepancies, in that the average life-cycle mileage for the Prius is low and the Hummer is high. The mileage listed in the original data (found here http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/Dust%20Zip%20Folder.zip (broken link)) are 109,000 for the Prius and 190,000 for the Hummer. The costs per mile are for the Prius $3.25 and the cost per mile for the Hummer is $3.03.

Again the mileage values are based on historical data.
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,281 posts, read 2,370,528 times
Reputation: 550
“Note that there are clearly many consumers who have driven further and clocked more miles for some of these vehicles, but this information takes into account historic accident and disposal records for individual demographic groups and how long these vehicles are likely to last”

“It should also be pointed out that on a Dust to Dust basis, the Estimated Miles doesn’t mean the vehicle is “used up” and has no life remaining, only that this is the approximate mileage at the time it is removed from the streets as a daily-use vehicle and sent for disposal as either a source of parts or eventually scrapped.”


The quotes above are from the report. I have a concern with the numbers in the fact they they indicate they take the mileage from wrecked vehicles. They don’t seem to discriminate between vehicles that will no longer run but are otherwise intact, versus vehicles that are too damaged to run.

Lets say I have a prius and I have 180k miles on it and it still runs. Then some guy has a new prius and gets into an accident at 36k miles and can no longer use the vehicle. Then another person has a prius that has 66k miles on it and for some reason it no longer runs and is used for parts. The report will only factor the 66k and 36k miles to get an average, it wouldn’t factor in my car that has 180k miles. The wrecked vehicle at 36k is factored into the report than the still in use vehicle of 180k. I don’t think they should use wrecked vehicles either to get “life” expectancy numbers regarding mileage.

If I wanted to understand how long a person can live, I would get records of people who died of natural causes to get an average. I would dismiss from my research those people who died from unatural causes, i.e. murder, suicide, etc… since those number can slant the report, unless that is what my intentions were.
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Old 03-22-2007, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,511,765 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoPadge View Post
The article chloedog posted has some discrepancies, in that the average life-cycle mileage for the Prius is low and the Hummer is high.
Thank you. Whew. It took all that to get to this. The above statement is essentially the same as the one I made way, way back in the beginning of this thread.
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Old 03-22-2007, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Topeka, KS
1,560 posts, read 7,155,321 times
Reputation: 513
pslOldTimer,
But it still doesn't change the fact that based on their research, CNW found that the Prius cost more cradle to grave to build, distribute, drive and dispose of, than the Hummer, on a per mile basis.

madicarus2000,
I don't see where in the language quoted, that they claim that your still running vehicle wouldn't be counted. But as a series of vehicles ages, there are always statistical annomalies that are present in the data. The car totaled driving off the lot, or my father's '82 Chevy truck with over 400,000 miles on it. In the long run out of the 107,897 Prius' sold in 2005, your high mileage model isn't going to make a big impact. It's where the majority of them finish.
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,307 posts, read 5,511,765 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoPadge View Post
pslOldTimer,
But it still doesn't change the fact that based on their research, CNW found that the Prius cost more cradle to grave to build, distribute, drive and dispose of, than the Hummer, on a per mile basis.
I don't know from butkis about the CNW. All I know is the original article presented in this thread was bogus. That's all I said. Others argued with me and after more pointless arguing than I've ever seen, you finally established that I was right in the first place.

If it wasn't for what seem to be rabid anti-environment conservatives who can't stand seeing one of their pet blogs being debunked, this would have been over a long time ago.

What I don't understand is why you all fight so hard to make the Prius or any other environmental effort look so bad. Do you really want everyone to drive Hummers instead of Prius's? What's the point? I don't get it.
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Old 03-23-2007, 07:07 AM
 
452 posts, read 1,133,786 times
Reputation: 342
IT’S NOT ABOUT THE CARS...DAMN! It’s about the process and about the environmental damage that is done by the plant that produces the nickel in the battery for the Prius. It’s also about the Nickel being shipped around the world which uses vast amounts of energy and resources. Everyone knows that the Prius is better for the environment. BUT, when you add the pollution that is caused by the plant that produces the Nickel and the pollution that is caused by shipping that Nickel around the world it renders the Prius pointless. We all know that the Prius is better than a hummer on the environment if you just compare the two vehicles.

Some of you refuse to see the point of the article. The article is not "bogus".
What the article is trying to state is that the Prius in theory is good for the environment but, when you add in the damage done to the environment by the process's involved in building, manufacturing, and shipping the Prius is more harmful than a Hummer on the environment.

Quote:
pslOldTimer
Senior Member you finally established that I was right in the first place.
Quote:
seeing one of their pet blogs being debunked
How are you right? Yes, you dont get it! How is it debunked when...

You have proven to me and everyone else that you would rather argue over apples and oranges than to see what is right in front of you. The holyier than thou Prius is just an environmental trophy that is pointless when you add in ALL aspects of the vehicle. So, its ok that the plant which produces the nickel for the prius is a environmental catastrophy. Not to mention all the other environmental damage that is caused in shipping the battery around the world. This is all ok with you? Whats the point in arguing the small stuff when the damage to the environment has already been done.

Last edited by chloedog; 03-23-2007 at 07:30 AM..
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Old 03-23-2007, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Naples
1,247 posts, read 929,634 times
Reputation: 344
You do realize that nickel was mined before the Prius hit the market, right? And they don't ship a single battery on those cargo ships.

Before I believe the original article, I want to see the math. They certainly made assumptions in their calculations. I want to see what assumptions they made, because they would have a drastic effect on the result.

We won't ever see that math, though.

A more recent report shows the Prius outperforming the SUVs, anyway. I know it's from wikipedia, but *shrugs*

Quote:
In any case, the less publicized but more recent report for 2006 vehicles (summarizing spreadsheets available only) has adjusted the figures considerably. According to CNW Marketing, hybrids now cost less per mile than large SUVs: the 2006 Prius is reported at $2.87/mile, Chevy Tahoe is $3.76/mile, and Ford Excursion is $4.04/mile. Regardless, until the vehicle lifetime costs can be verified more completely, these reports should be considered with healthy skepticism.
The materials for the batteries are recyclable, as well.

Last edited by LeavingFlorida05; 03-23-2007 at 09:01 AM..
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Old 03-23-2007, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Naples
1,247 posts, read 929,634 times
Reputation: 344
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/10...eener-a-prius/

Quote:
As with any model, it is critical that the methodology is valid, the assumptions are sound, and the data accurate. The CNW study makes several assumptions which undermine the conclusions arrived at. Without a scientific peer review, it is impossible to comment on any of these factors.

What is clear, however, is that the conclusions appear to be very different from the results of several other rigorous, scientifically-reviewed studies of the lifecycle impact of vehicles (e.g. Argonne National Laboratory, Massachusetts Institute of Technology).

Example 1: These studies conclude that the majority (80-85%) of the total lifetime energy use of a vehicle comes from the driving stage, with the remainder coming from the remaining stages of a vehicle life, whereas the CNW study shows these percentages to be reversed.
Example 2: Two Toyota models mentioned in the report, the Scion xA and xB sold only in the USA, are engineered with the same processes, built on the same assembly line, transported and shipped together, distributed through the same dealer network, have the same engines and transmissions, are about the same weight (within 50 lbs.), and have very similar fuel consumption ratings (one just over 35 mpg combined, the other just below 35), yet the CNW study shows the lifetime energy use of these vehicles to be very different (53 per cent).
Example 3: The CNW study states that hybrids require more lifetime energy than even large SUVs. Toyota's internal analysis does conclude that there is more energy required in the materials production stage for a hybrid, but that this is overwhelmingly made up for in the driving stage (the 80-85% stage), causing the hybrid to have a significantly lower lifetime energy use.
There are also basic factual errors in the report, for example CNW claim that the hybrid batteries are not recycled.
The errors in that 2005 CNW report were piling up. No wonder their numbers were "fixed" in 2006. They didn't want to go out of business after being proved to be liars and manipulators of the truth.
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Naples
1,247 posts, read 929,634 times
Reputation: 344
About battery recycling:

Quote:
In truth Toyota and sister brand Lexus have a comprehensive battery recycling programme in place and has been recycling Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case, and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information.
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Topeka, KS
1,560 posts, read 7,155,321 times
Reputation: 513
Well said Chloedog.

The world is not a simple as some would like you to think. Everything has it's costs, benefits, strengths and weaknesses. The Prius costs the purchaser less on the showroom floor and at the pump, and it does in fact get better gas mileage. If I'm commuting to work, I'd rather have the Prius. But if I'm taking a two hour trip to the lake, with my wife and kids, I'd rather have the Hummer. (Especially if I want to take the seadoos, a boat or camper.)

Environmentally, where I drive the Prius has less of an impact that the Hummer. But CNW's research claims that the Prius' impact is greater both on the creation end and the salvage/recycle end.
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