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Old 03-23-2007, 10:42 AM
 
452 posts, read 1,132,539 times
Reputation: 342

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Quote:
LeavingFlorida05
Did you even read the posts in this thread? WE KNOW THAT THE BATTERY IS RECYCLABLE.

Quote:
You do realize that nickel was mined before the Prius hit the market, right?
YES, WE ALREADY KNOW THAT. What's your point?

Quote:
And they don't ship a single battery on those cargo ships
They Dont? How do they then?
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Naples
1,247 posts, read 927,288 times
Reputation: 344
Quote:
Originally Posted by chloedog View Post
Did you even read the posts in this thread? WE KNOW THAT THE BATTERY IS RECYCLABLE.
Yet, you discount this in your conclusions.

Quote:
YES, WE ALREADY KNOW THAT. What's your point?
This "dead zone" would exist with or without the Prius.

Quote:
They Dont? How do they then?
I would assume they're shipped in bulk. That's far more efficient than chartering a cargo ship for each and every battery.

I want to see their methodology. I also want to know why their 2005 results were reversed in their 2006 report.

P.S. Caps lock is cruise control for cool.
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Old 03-23-2007, 11:55 AM
 
452 posts, read 1,132,539 times
Reputation: 342
Yet, another who chooses not to look at the big picture

Quote:
This "dead zone" would exist with or without the Prius.
This statement alone tells me that you do not get it. So why should I even try to explain it.

Quote:
I would assume they're shipped in bulk. That's far more efficient than chartering a cargo ship for each and every battery.
We know that they do not ship each and every battery seprately, that is just funny to think that you even thought that. The issue is that the process involved to produce the battery takes it around the world.
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Old 03-23-2007, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Naples
1,247 posts, read 927,288 times
Reputation: 344
And what is this "big picture" that only you (and those who agree with you) see?

Oh, I see you edited you post. You do realize that they are cleaning up this "dead zone", right? The dead zone is caused not by the mining, but by the smelting. Emission reductions can be made. Pressure must continually be applied to the industry.
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Old 03-23-2007, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Topeka, KS
1,560 posts, read 7,148,243 times
Reputation: 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeavingFlorida05 View Post
I want to see their methodology. I also want to know why their 2005 results were reversed in their 2006 report.

P.S. Caps lock is cruise control for cool.
A lot of the methodology is covered in the report. I'm not suprised that the values changed between 2005 and 2006, as the source data changes the results should change as well. It would be nice in there were some reliability statistics for each model. Something along the lines of "we believe data for the Mazda Miata to be accuarate within 10%." That would go a long way towards validating the data or explaining difference between individual models, and between years.
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Old 03-23-2007, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,281 posts, read 2,368,175 times
Reputation: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by chloedog View Post
So, its ok that the plant which produces the nickel for the prius is a environmental catastrophy. Not to mention all the other environmental damage that is caused in shipping the battery around the world. This is all ok with you? Whats the point in arguing the small stuff when the damage to the environment has already been done.
So the Hummer, it is made in an environmentally safe manner in a green pasture using only organic items all produced and installed within arms length on the assembly line floor? Or is it possible that many of the items could be processed by refineries, shipped via cargo containers and semi-trucks from all over the world?

The author of the article found one piece of the prius and connected it to a refinery so they could “claim” how environmentally damaging the vehicle was. Well I’m sure if someone took the time to look at all the components on a Hummer and traced them from production to installation in the Hummer, they could find the exact same thing. I don’t live in wonderland to suppose that the hummer is evironmentally different in the creation than the prius is. But I see that after the fact, the prius is better for the environment.
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Old 03-23-2007, 05:45 PM
 
452 posts, read 1,132,539 times
Reputation: 342
Quote:
madicarus2000
So the Hummer, it is made in an environmentally safe manner in a green pasture using only organic items all produced and installed within arms length on the assembly line floor? Or is it possible that many of the items could be processed by refineries, shipped via cargo containers and semi-trucks from all over the world?

The author of the article found one piece of the prius and connected it to a refinery so they could “claim” how environmentally damaging the vehicle was. Well I’m sure if someone took the time to look at all the components on a Hummer and traced them from production to installation in the Hummer, they could find the exact same thing. I don’t live in wonderland to suppose that the hummer is evironmentally different in the creation than the prius is. But I see that after the fact, the prius is better for the environment.
How many times must I say "All Aspects of BOTH cars were taken into consideration"

All of you have been so indoctrinated to believe that the Prius is the environmental king that no matter what anyone says or what kind of data is in front of you, you will always disagree. All of you that think your being “environmentally friendly” will just disagree every time and search for the most miniscule details to validate your stance.
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Old 03-26-2007, 07:50 AM
Yac
 
6,051 posts, read 7,731,734 times
Remain calm and remember to keep the discussion civil. Please.
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Old 03-30-2007, 09:33 AM
 
2 posts, read 6,422 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by chloedog View Post
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?


http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188 (broken link)
The original article is an opinion piece (i.e., no fact-checking) for a college newspaper that evidently desperately needs attention. In February, The Recorder published "Rape only hurts if you fight it" and now in March, "Prius outdoes hummer." This newspaper and this article are garbage.

1. Regarding new EPA mileage estimates, Demorro claims the Chevy Aveo's mileage puts it within "spitting distance" of the Prius. The new EPA combined mileage put the Chevy Aveo at 26 mpg, the Toyota Prius at 46 mpg. So I guess 20 miles more per gallon is "spitting distance."

2. The "Dust-to-dust" study is from a marketing firm, not a science journal. It arrives at an artificially high cost for the Prius by assigning it an arbitrary lifespan of 100k miles, and a Hummer 300k miles. There's Prius being used as cabs that have 200k on them now: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8839690/

And, insofar as a car lasting, what car do you expect to repair less? A Toyota Prius or a GM Hummer? You can check Consumer Reports for the answer to that one. A good analysis of the flaws in dust-to-dust is available at:
http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=48

3. The Sudbury info is seriously outdated, and the comment about moon buggies (like, when did Nasa test moon buggies — early 1970’s) ought to have given the author a clue. Sudbury was polluted by a century of mining (1870 on). In fact, some of Sudbury’s nickel went into making the Statue of Liberty. Currently, the mine is owned by INCO (not Toyota), and produces 100,000 tons of nickel a year, of which Toyota buys 1% (1000 tons). Blaming Toyota for the pollution at Sudbury is ludicrous. Nickel, by the way, is primarily used to make stainless steel. The Mail on Sunday newspaper, which ran the story the college article is a thin re-write of (visible here http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/...n_page_id=1770 ), used a stock photo you can buy online taken in 1994 to illustrate the pollution (visible here http://www.photoboy.com/bin/Cklb?vmo=1173985067754 (broken link) ). There were, of course, no Prius in existence or being manufactured in 1994.

Furthermore, Sudbury is no longer this polluted, as INCO and the city have planted over 8 million trees there since 1979. The best history online of the Sudbury devastation/reforestation comes from GM Canada -- that's GM, maker of the Hummer, ahem, writing about how Sudbury was polluted and how it has come back. Really, one should blame Chicago more than Toyota, as Sudbury's trees were all cut down in 1871 to help rebuild Chicago after the fire. GM provides telling photos of some of the reclamation from 1979 to present.
http://www.gmcanada.com/inm/gmcanada/english/about/MissionGreen/Daily/Sep22.html (broken link)

Canadian news recently broadcast a show on Sudbury's regreening:
http://www.cbc.ca/clips/rm-hi/mackinnon-sudbury070312.rm (broken link)

The acid rain problem David Martin of Greenpeace is talking about in is the situation pre 1972.

Last edited by megansprius; 03-30-2007 at 09:38 AM.. Reason: link fix
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Old 03-30-2007, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Naples
1,247 posts, read 927,288 times
Reputation: 344
Thanks for the info, Megansprius.
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