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A 13 million dollar lottery winner is immediately taxed almost half of his winnings. Any "easy" money after that should be taxed at a fair rate.
The beauty of capitalism and free will is the opportunity and responsability it gives individuals. It doesnt take much to accummulate assets you just have to live with in your means. Income is like a stream, put your hand in the stream and see how fast it fills up. You just have to be willing to divert a little of that stream to somewhere safe (for me it was real estate) and watch it grow. Anyone in this country can accumulate assets being responsible and living within their means.
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."
Does anyone else find it offensive when people talk about not wanting to raise taxes on the rich (I'll use 1 million+ per year for my definitiion of rich) because it's "taking away their hard earned money"?
No, George. I find your entire post offensive, if you want to know the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t
The very rich do not earn their money in the same sense that average americans do. You all should know this by now! The very rich need only leverage their capital in the correct ways to increase their wealth, no true work is required.
Unless one has inherited all their wealth (and there are very few who have) they have worked for it. Smart people, who work hard will invest some of their money (my father used to tell me to "put your money to work for you"). When they invest their money, they are investing in America (American businesses, like Microsoft, Apple Computer) which helps those business grow and provide jobs. Have you ever read the story of Apple Computer? The story is an American story about how two ordinary guys, working for Hewlett Packard, started the PC business. Would you say Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak didn't earn their wealth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t
The average person doesn't get paid if they aren't producing goods or performing services. They are the backbone of the economy, the creators of all the wealth. The rich have nothing without them.
The "average person" may be perfectly happy with this arrangement. Most people do not have the ambition to become self employed; but even the "average person", if he invests some of what he earns can become wealthy.
The "average person" working at a salaried job (or hourly employee) is not "creating wealth". They are earning a living. Period.
Wealth is created by investing, or starting your own business and running it successfully, and growing that business. The employees of any business are paid to do a job. Their paycheck is their compensation for doing what they were hired to do. They have no claim on the companies profits, unless there is a profit sharing plan in place that is offered by the company as an employee benefit (which many companies do have).
Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t
It's offensive to the people who do the real work in this country, the teachers, drywall hangers, doctors, concrete pourers, road maintenance crews, computer programmers, bus drivers, loggers, carpet installers, anything you see on Dirty Jobs, etc. etc. etc. to compare the money they give their all for- to money made by simply leveraging capital, no work required!
What is offensive, as I noted above, is this attitude of people such as yourself, that those who choose another path; i.e., start businesses etc. and are successful and become wealthy, have done it on the backs of those who are simply happy to work for someone else. Many people have no desire to do anything but be a carpenter, or electrician, or work in an office, or any other job you can name. But they can all invest and become wealthy if they choose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t
It's also offensive to imply that a CEO's time is worth 400 times more than the average worker.
Time is not what is being paid for. It is skill, knowlege, and talent. Ability to run a business, a department of a business or other leadership position within a business organization. Usually a person has gone to college and has a degree of some kind to prepare for this kind of position (though it is not always the case — some have natural ability, but it takes them longer to demonstrate their ability and climb the "corporate ladder").
Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t
The way to get rich in this country is to start your own business. It's next to impossible to get truly rich through your labor alone.
Well, now. There may be a glimmer of hope for you. If you understand that, why all the nonsense you posted above?
Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t
If you're a janitor, cleaning office buildings by yourself will only get you so far, one person can only do so much. The way to get rich is to start getting others to work for you! Pay them a wage and profit off every building they clean. Expand. Eventually, you will get to the point where you have 10 janitors working for you, and you will no longer have to do any cleaning yourself! Manage and grow the business for a few years, and then sell to a competitor for a nice cash out. You are now rich. If you are smart, you are now aggressively investing. Buy an office building to lease out (you don't have to deal with it, just hire a management company to handle the details). Give control of your money to the right people, and it will now grow on it's own. You've reached critical mass. Congratulations, you worked hard and smart and played the game well. and you've earned a nice big house and the car you've always wanted. Enjoy your life of leisure, we might be a little jealous, but we're not mad at ya.
Becoming rich is fine, but once you make it please remember that there are others working much harder than you are,
Hold on here. Just when I thought that you "got it". Do you think all of the above scenario you just went through is easy? It is hard work to make things happen. It takes a lot of time, putting in extra hours and not always being at home with the family in front of the TV.
Once succes is achieved, you don't just sit back and relax either. It has to be maintained. Do you think Bill Gates just sat around the office at Microsoft once he achieved success? Doubtful. He was probably the hardest working person in the company right up until he stepped down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t
...for much less money, and it would only be fair for you to pay your fair share of taxes on the money that is now funneling into your bank account like magic.
Not "like magic". Through effort, business sense, knowledge, and skill in handling money.
And the government has no claim on it, and especially no busness telling anyone what their "fair share" is. I totally reject that notion. Confiscation by force of the fruit of ones labor (either manual or that produced by the labor of their intellect) is wrong, and it is wrong to force one to give to others not of their choosing; i.e., Obama's redistribution plan to pay others mortgages, etc. (that is not charity).
Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t
Especially considering the only reason your CarpetWorld inc. stock has money to pay you dividends is because Jim the carpet installer (making 35k) just finished on a 4 bedroom. You've earned your slice of the pie, but please don't get greedy and try to eat the whole thing, the little guy deserves more than crumbs.
The carpet installer gets paid to do the job he was hired to do (as I explained above). He does not have to continue in his employment, if he does not like the arrangement. He can start his own business, or choose another field of endevour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by george_t
Does anyone not agree that there is a distinction between hard earned money and capital gains?
As noted above. And let's be clear here, that Obama's plan to increase tax on capital gains will mean less expansion of business, and fewer jobs created, exactly the opposite of what we need. But Obama seeks to punish those who own and run businesses. That is his aim, and his sincere desire, because that is who he is. He is a socialist, and he seeks to confiscate the wealth of others to accomplish his purposes.
In all your examples the market eventually corrected and exposed the criminals. What you want is let the fox in the hen house
Gas 1.65 a gal
Broke Madoff in jail
the Enron folk I feel for but free enterprize serves the greater good
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Horse
Yep, that old evil regulation. Brought us Enron, Subprime, $4 gas when there was a surplus of oil and refining capacity, morgage crisis, crisis of investment banking which caused any and other dominios to fall and are currently falling. NOT
The Reagan Republican Dogma of deregulation as proven to be a abdismal failure and a killer for the middle class and the little guy.
I want regulation, regulation, and more regulation. I do not trust Mandoff and the likes to police themselves. Seems between Bear, Lleaman, Merrill, City Bank and so forth they have proven they need lots of big brother watching. I want Securities Exchange increased 10x in size.
I also want Bill Clintons idea of not allowing any deduction for salary expense after 2 million is paid to one employee by the company, so all paid after 2 million is taxed as profit at the corporate level and again as ordinary income on the employee's tax return. Let em pay any thing they want. Nothing unfair here, our whole thax code is made up of exceptions.
BTW, just in case ya'll have not noticed the the haves and have mores are killing the middle class, no tears here. Stick it to em.
No one "provides" jobs. In the case of my janitor example, if an office building needed to be cleaned, they could put out the word and independent janitors could compete for the job. In essence, the job is being "provided" by the dirty office building, and could be taken by anyone willing to do the work. Why would a middleman be needed?
Are you serious? The dirty building is providing the job? Who owns and leases the building, the the dirty building authority?
Are you serious? The dirty building is providing the job? Who owns and leases the building, the the dirty building authority?
Demand is what provides jobs. If there is a demand for a certain good or service, the corresponding jobs will spring up to meet that demand. Capital by itself doesn't create jobs. Try pouring capital into a venture for which there is zero demand, and we'll see how many jobs you create.
yes they do, but here is the strange part
as you go up in the career ladder what is expected of you goes down. bizarre.
Well, I don't know where you have found that to be true. Or are you just imagining? Whenever I was promoted (when I worked in the corporate world) more was expected of me. I always had greater responsibility, not less. Companies do not pay people to do nothing. Sorry. What planet are you from?
As my wife worked her way up to manager (store manager, not department manager) of the large retail chain she worked for in S. California (Buffum's, now gone), she got home later, and worked harder. She had much more responsibility.
I don't think you know what you are talking about. You think less is expected of people. It is your attitude that people at the top do nothing for their money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948
what is even more bizarre is popularity does a nose dive.
when you have slain the dragon
the village does not in fact turn out to cheer
the beautiful princess does not in fact fall in love with you
I didn't think anyone went into business, or "[climbed] the career ladder" to be popular.
Does anyone else find it offensive when people talk about not wanting to raise taxes on the rich (I'll use 1 million+ per year for my definitiion of rich) because it's "taking away their hard earned money"?
The very rich do not earn their money in the same sense that average americans do. You all should know this by now! The very rich need only leverage their capital in the correct ways to increase their wealth, no true work is required.
The average person doesn't get paid if they aren't producing goods or performing services. They are the backbone of the economy, the creators of all the wealth. The rich have nothing without them.
It's offensive to the people who do the real work in this country, the teachers, drywall hangers, doctors, concrete pourers, road maintenance crews, computer programmers, bus drivers, loggers, carpet installers, anything you see on Dirty Jobs, etc. etc. etc. to compare the money they give their all for- to money made by simply leveraging capital, no work required!
It's also offensive to imply that a CEO's time is worth 400 times more than the average worker.
The way to get rich in this country is to start your own business. It's next to impossible to get truly rich through your labor alone. If you're a janitor, cleaning office buildings by yourself will only get you so far, one person can only do so much. The way to get rich is to start getting others to work for you! Pay them a wage and profit off every building they clean. Expand. Eventually, you will get to the point where you have 10 janitors working for you, and you will no longer have to do any cleaning yourself! Manage and grow the business for a few years, and then sell to a competitor for a nice cash out. You are now rich. If you are smart, you are now aggressively investing. Buy an office building to lease out (you don't have to deal with it, just hire a management company to handle the details). Give control of your money to the right people, and it will now grow on it's own. You've reached critical mass. Congratulations, you worked hard and smart and played the game well. and you've earned a nice big house and the car you've always wanted. Enjoy your life of leisure, we might be a little jealous, but we're not mad at ya.
Becoming rich is fine, but once you make it please remember that there are others working much harder than you are, for much less money, and it would only be fair for you to pay your fair share of taxes on the money that is now funneling into your bank account like magic. Especially considering the only reason your CarpetWorld inc. stock has money to pay you dividends is because Jim the carpet installer (making 35k) just finished on a 4 bedroom. You've earned your slice of the pie, but please don't get greedy and try to eat the whole thing, the little guy deserves more than crumbs.
Does anyone not agree that there is a distinction between hard earned money and capital gains?
Does anyone here believe the poor arent actually lazy?
I was just reading about the background of one of my state's US senators. I wasn't living here in Tennessee when he was elected so while I monitor his activities in the Senate, I didn't know much about his "formative" years.
Bob Corker is the one who came into the national spotlight when he pitched a fit over the auto bailout plans, pissing off the unions and the auto companies. He was born in SC but his family moved to Tennessee when he was 11. Before he became a US senator, he picked up trash, bagged ice, worked at an auto place and worked as a construction laborer before he graduated from college. He got his college degree in Industrial Management at the University of Tennessee in the 70s, worked 4 years as a construction superintendent after he graduated and then started his own construction company with $8,000. He eventually expanded it to 18 states, sold it, and then acquired and developed commercial real estate. He became a multi-millionaire.
A successful businessman, he was appointed Tennessee Commissioner of Finance and Administration in the 90s.
In 2001, he became the Mayor of Chattanooga and totally revitalized the city cutting crime in half, improving education and getting people to invest in the city.
So, he didn't sit on his butt as some fancy pants layabout when he was young, went to the state's university not some rich kid school, worked as a laborer and in management, ran two successful businesses, had a position overseeing budget and finance for the state, ran one of Tennessee’s 4 largest cities and now sits in the US Senate on these committees: Senate Committees on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs; Energy and Natural Resources; Foreign Relations; and the Special Committee on Aging. He’s been in the Senate only since Nov. 2006. Personally, he’s married with 2 grown daughters.
So here we have a guy who worked as a regular schmo before he went to college, got his degree not in some fancy pants ivy league school but at the state university, worked in a management position after he graduated, started a construction business of his own with not a heck of a lot of money, was so successful he expanded it to 18 states, sold his business and went into commercial real estate development, became a millionaire, ran the state's budget and finance operation, ran and improved the city of Chattanooga and now as a junior senator, sits on some hot committees.
The point is, this man earned both his power and his wealth and should not be penalized for it. In fact, I'm wondering why the Repubs don't give him a look-see as a presidential candidate seeing he has both financial experience and managerial experience.
Shoot, with a background like that, I'm surprised that the Democrats have not totally trashed and tried to destroy him by now. That's usually what they do. Look what they have done, and are still trying to do to Sarah Palin.
Demand is what provides jobs. If there is a demand for a certain good or service, the corresponding jobs will spring up to meet that demand. Capital by itself doesn't create jobs. Try pouring capital into a venture for which there is zero demand, and we'll see how many jobs you create.
So I take it that you are the dirty building that is providing the demand?
Demand is what provides jobs. If there is a demand for a certain good or service, the corresponding jobs will spring up to meet that demand. Capital by itself doesn't create jobs. Try pouring capital into a venture for which there is zero demand, and we'll see how many jobs you create.
Wrong. "Demand" doesn't provide anything. It is an entrepreneur who recognizes demand, and starts a business to meet the demand. The entrepreneur provides the jobs, and he puts his capital at risk to start the business.
But if he is wrong about his assesment of demand, and the business fails, it is his capital loss.
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