The President is running out of people to blame

[lamexican]

Originally Posted by roysoldboy

*** As Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz and now-CBO director Peter Orszag wrote in late 2001, “Basic
economic analysis indicates that increased government expenditures can indeed be stimulative, and,
in fact, are often more effective as stimulus measures than tax cuts.”***


I have wondered why Peter Orszag got that job. Now I know.

Try to discredit all you want but the CBO tells a different story.
Center on Budget and Policy Priorities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some groups who oppose the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities's policy positions accuse the group of producing misleading studies.[6][7] However, the Center's analyses are based on the work of independent, nonpartisan authorities such as the Congressional Budget Office, the U.S. Census Bureau, and the Government Accountability Office. It is widely cited by media for producing credible analysis.[8][9]

So go crawl in your ideoligical hole let those that care about their country have an adult conversation.

[coastalrap]

Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake

Americans have welcomed the Obama era in the same spirit of hope the President campaigned on. But after five weeks in office, it's become clear that Mr. Obama's policies are slowing, if not stopping, what would otherwise be the normal process of economic recovery. From punishing business to squandering scarce national public resources, Team Obama is creating more uncertainty and less confidence -- and thus a longer period of recession or subpar growth.

Who would have thunk it?

Originally Posted by lamexican

How is it that 2001 was Clintons recession and this isn't Bushs recession.

It was the Bush recession but it's turning into the Obama depression by doing a whole lot more of what made the Bush recession.

Originally Posted by CatManDoo

Of course, if the market was going the other way, Obama's supporters would be tripping over themselves to praise his policies and give him all the credit.

More true words have ever been stated in this forum.

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

I doubt it.
Reasons:
10+ trillion national debt. And growing.
Pursuant to law, only new debt authorizes new "dollar bills".
Each "dollar bill" is borrowed into existence, at usury.
Usury is mathematically impossible to pay in a finite money token system.
Repercussions:
Increased interest service.
Debt, denominated in dollars, is not payable with "Dollar bills" (no par value). Public debt requires 500 billion ounces of gold.
Facts:
Congress borrowed MORE than it paid in interest, in 2007 and 2008.
And will probably borrow MORE that it will pay in interest in 2009.
(Isn't that what got Bernie Madoff in trouble? Paying past investors with money from new investors?)
Known World supply of above ground gold: est. 5.5 billion ounces.
Fort Knox Depository 147.3 million ounces
Future:
When investors realize that Treasury instruments are bad risks, the Federal government will not be able to borrow more. The default on the public debt will have broad repercussions. No new Federal Reserve notes will be authorized, causing a freeze on money growth. As international trade collapses, imports will become too expensive or unavailable. If you can't make it, find it, you will do without it.

You're attempting to use logic and facts, stop it.

Originally Posted by saganista

What other policies are there? Consumer demand is collapsing. Business demand is collapsing. State and local government demand is collapsing. Who else is left?

Bozo right-wingers -- including those who write the WSJ editorial page -- would do better in ceasing their insipid whining and commencing instead with the massive apologies that they owe to the rest of us for having so brutally messed up an otherwise perfectly good global economy. This is a lot of pain and suffering that people are having to go through over something so trivial as the unchecked greed of a bunch of cowboy capitalists.

I think it's time you call a septic truck, you seem to have reached capacity

Originally Posted by Heiwos

I suggest you listen to jetgraphics & others above, then do a lot more reading on this subject. We will not come out of this depression the same as we went in. Republicans, doing their damndest since 1980 with their incessant borrowing & wasting, have finally broken the back of the country. This will severely affect your life for decades to come, unless you're rich now.

That is true, which is why I don't understand why some still believe that turning that up will all of a sudden have a reverse effect. Must be something in the Kool aid

[saganista]

Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake

All of these are entitlement programs, or subsidies to states to ensure that they can fund their own (often bankrupt, excessive) entitlement programs.

Really. How do you turn the Making Work Pay Tax Credit into an entitlement? It is an income tax cut. By what definition are income tax cuts now considered entitlements?

[saganista]

Originally Posted by coastalrap

It was the Bush recession but it's turning into the Obama depression by doing a whole lot more of what made the Bush recession.

That's interesting. One of the problems that the administration must now overcome is that markets for asset-backed securities are frozen. No one can sell them. That's why TALF became necssary and is so urgently needed. It was of course Wall Street's monstrous abuse of ABS's that put us in this hole. Apparently, you're not all that clear on what Bush did and what Obama is doing.

Originally Posted by coastalrap

I think it's time you call a septic truck, you seem to have reached capacity.

The usual in-depth, fact-based, right-wing response. No answers to the questions, and no recognition of the course that was followed in reaching this abysmal point.

[jetgraphics]

Dear readers, you should not apply partisan logic to the problem. Both parties are left wing, pro-socialist. No politician dares utter the heresy that FICA / SocSec must be repealed. Of course, since participation in 100% voluntary, it only requires you to stop volunteering. But persuading the private sector to READ THE LAW, and not assume that free Americans must first get government permission (and registration) before they can work in their own nation, is a daunting task.

In addition, most Americans are uninformed to the nature of money.

A Money Primer for Non-Insane People

MONEY IS:

[1] A medium of exchange

[2] An accounting symbol

[3] Proportional to the marketplace

MONEY HAS:

[4] No intrinsic value outside of the marketplace

MONEY IS NOT:

[5] real

MONEY CANNOT:

[6] be saved

[7] be invested,at usury, in a finite money token system

[8] be owned, in the sense that it can be bought and sold

MONEY SHOULD NOT:

[9] be limited or under restriction, save that of the marketplace

[10] be under the control of parasites (government, usurers)

[11] be worshiped

[12] be a goal of one's life


[1,2,3] Whether you realize it or not, money is a medium of exchange that facilitates the creation and trade of usable (surplus) goods and services. It is a mechanism that simplifies trade of different items, services, and volumes. As an accounting symbol, for the value of all goods and services in the marketplace, it must be proportional to that marketplace. If it ceases to be proportional, then someone will suffer inequitable trade.

[4] Money, as an accounting system, has no function if there is nothing in the marketplace. Without a marketplace, money cannot facilitate trade. A sum of money without anything to buy has no value.

[5] An accounting system, by which one tracks sum of items, goods, and services, should not be something from within the marketplace. In fact, if one uses an item taken from the marketplace, a mathematical error will occur. In set theory, if M(money) is proportional to S (sum of all goods / services), making anything from S, will generate a paradox. For example, if G (gold) is deemed to be the preferred money token, and it is 1% of the whole Sum, we can set up the equation:

G = (.01 S)

BUT

We must now make G have a value proportional to the whole set (S), so that we can trade.

G (proportional to) S.

So 1/10 G can buy 1/10 S.

HOWEVER

Gold, which is 1% of Sum of all, can buy all. Yet G is a subset of S.

G = (.01S), so (0.01S) = S.

One percent of the gold, as "money",can buy all the gold (which represents 1% of S).

See the problem now?

"Hard money" requires insanity to function. Anything of intrinsic value from within the marketplace cannot be used as money. Especially since the marketplace varies,disproportionate to the item deemed to be money.

[6] If money is a mechanism to account for value, facilitate trade, and is proportional to the marketplace, you cannot "save" it. Taking money out of circulation only prevents it from its function – moving goods and services equitably. In fact, the more money taken out of circulation by hoarding / saving, the less trade can occur, since there is not enough money tokens to facilitate trade. By making money scarce (disproportionate to the marketplace), the sellers cannot sell, or must accept LESS money. If they cannot sell, they suffer. And if have to accept less money, they cannot equitably trade (nor pay outstanding bills).

[7] Though we might think we're"saving" money when we deposit it with bankers (usurers), buy bonds (usury) or "invest" it in stock corporations, for interest (usury), we are not. The money is put into circulation, facilitating trade. The usurer charges a fee, in money, for the use of that money, and pays a portion to the investor.

However, if the money token system is finite (as is precious metal coin), aggregate usury is impossible to pay. The sum of principle and interest owed exceeds the whole set of available money tokens. A proportion of debtors will default, simply because the money does not exist. And they will lose their valuable property pledged as collateral on the debt. That is why usury is proscribed as an abomination, and denounced by almost all religions.

When we're told that it's "wise to invest", mathematics says we are unwise.

For example, if "everybody" invested 10% of their money, within one time unit of usury, the resulting debt would be impossible to discharge.


Let S (whole sum of money), and 0.1 S (10% invested, at usury), for 10% simple interest per time unit, computes to:

Interest: 1.1 x (0.1 S) = 0.11 S

BUT

Add the usury to the remaining money supply and an error exists.
0.9 S + 0.11 S = 1.01 S

To pay the usury, the money supply (S) would have to grow 1%. If the supply is static or cannot grow at the necessary rate, investors will be unpaid, debtors will default.

This problem is compounded when the money token is borrowed into existence at usury. Each unit created imposes an obligation for more money, which, in turn, can only be created by greater debt. Ergo, debt-credit money tokens are catastrophic tools that destroy productive societies for the benefit of parasites and predators.

[* special note : in America's case, the bimetallic standard was another disaster in the making. A simple solution would be to make the unit dollar a silver coin, and designate a gold coin as an eagle, without stipulating any proportionality, by law. That way, the market value of the silver to gold would not create havoc. Contracts payable in dollars might be negotiated with eagles, but that would be a private agreement, not imposed by statutory law.]

[8] There are many people who believe that money must have an intrinsic value, such as precious metal (gold, silver, platinum) or it violates religious law. However, I sincerely doubt that God would impose a money token system that cannot function equitably. The marketplace of goods and services can always grow larger from
(a) rising population of laborers,
(b) tools that multiply the labor, and
(c) automation that produces goods and services without additional input of labor. If the money token system is finite, composed of scarce precious metal coin, it will impose chaos. The harder you work or produce, the less money you earn. If you are in debt, the harder you work, or produce, the less you earn, and thus cannot pay your creditor. Scarce money is a recipe for economic disaster. In fact, scarcity of money drives demand for credit, at usury, offered by bankers.

Therefore, a sound money system (honest accounting) cannot be composed of any "thing" that can be bought or sold in the marketplace, if equitable trade is to exist. It would be as absurd as charging a fee to make each tick mark on a tablet, used to keep score.

[9] For a "free market" to truly exist, the medium of exchange has to be free to grow / shrink in proportion to it. If any disproportionality exists, either the seller or the buyer will be cheated. Those who can manipulate the illusion of abstract money can enrich themselves at the expense of others. Mankind has suffered from the predation of usurers for millennia. And we still willingly cooperate with those who prey upon us. Worse, we are indoctrinated to copy them, and debase ourselves, and "run with the pack". And it's no surprise when folks are "thrown to the wolves!"

One way that the supply of money tokens can adjust is when producers / laborers of new goods and services can issue private promissory notes (ex: coupons) denominated in that which they can do, have or produce. A farmer can issue notes denominated in harvest, or animals, or products. Laborers can issue notes denominated in hours of labor or specific services. Enterprises can issue notes, denominated in that which they offer. A restaurant can issue notes, denominated in meals, or other services.

When the note is tendered to the maker, it is extinguished when the trade is completed. If an entrepreneur needs to purchase goods or services, but has no "money", he can emit promises (notes) to capitalize. He need not beg for debt-credit, at usury, from a bankster. He then discharges his promises, when his enterprise is up and running, without the burden of usury, nor the requirement to fight for a share of scarce money tokens.

[10] A money system should not be under the control of parasites (government, usurers), who produce no goods nor services. A government may offer its services for oversight and offering recourse and remedy, in the pursuit of justice (giving everyman his due).

A private promissory note money token system, by itself, would probably be limited in scope to a local community, where the people knew the credit worthiness of the note makers.

For a larger marketplace, a widely circulating note / money token, is necessary. A bank, acting as a note warehouse, may be one solution. A note could be tendered, discounted by the bank, and bank notes given in exchange. There would be no pressure to create new money tokens, because there would be no usury, nor compound interest. The bank can either tender the note for discharge (making profit from the discount) or sell it to another.

[11] Obviously, we've been taught to worship money, chase after it, be persuaded to act against our better natures, by it. That must change. And the first place change occurs is within each individual.

[12] We must all awaken from the nightmare where money was the goal of one's life work. True prosperity is the creation of usable goods and services, their exchange, and the time to enjoy those goods and services. Any other activity is counterproductive, including war, usury, theft, and parasitism.

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by saganista

What other policies are there? Consumer demand is collapsing. Business demand is collapsing. State and local government demand is collapsing. Who else is left?

Yet, the college prof continues to sign off on HUGE spending bills. We all thought Bush liked to spend money. This guy is actually trying to turn us into a socialist country.

[Heiwos]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

Yet, the college prof continues to sign off on HUGE spending bills. We all thought Bush liked to spend money. This guy is actually trying to turn us into a socialist country.

Yeah how DARE Obama spend to fix roads that haven't been maintained for 8 years! It's socialism I tell ya!!

And oh yeah, France sucks. What are all those tourists thinking flocking to that socialist country? It's simply un-American to be whisked around a beautiful well-maintained country at up to 186 mph on a super-efficient ground transportation network. And don't get me started on their good public health care that doesn't bankrupt the patients. Get Halliburton and Blackwater in there to f**k that place up, stat!!