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As usual you have proven your ability to degenerate a discussion into a really stupid conversation, one that I refuse to entertain any further.
Only degenerated further by the philistine belief that the mere existence of machine guns in the hands of responsible gun owners necessarily result in increases of crime and casualties.
As usual you have proven your ability to degenerate a discussion into a really stupid conversation, one that I refuse to entertain any further.
Nope, just proving the absurdity of statements that machine guns are "weapons of mass destruction" when an SUV or truck can more easily and quickly kill large numbers of people. Of course you don't want to continue any discussion because it makes your anti-freedom agenda look as bad as it is.
Some truths to think about: Truth 1) Anti-Gun laws don't work.
The guy who killed the pastor couldn't legally carry his pistol- not in Illinois, where an American's right to armed self defense isn't recognized. But, he carried a pistol anyway.
Truth 2) Gun Free Zones don't work.
Even if the gunman could have carried, most states that allow concealed carry have strict laws against carrying these weapons in church- unless given permission by the pastor or church leaders. Since the congregation had never seen the gunman before, he wouldn't have had permission. But, he carried a pistol anyway.
Truth 3) Police Officers can't be everywhere at once.
And, nobody should expect them to be. It's just as stupid to think that a cop will be handy the next time a Cho Seung Hui wannabe opens up on a crowd, as it would be to bank on it raining the next time your grass field or woods catches on fire. You are in control of your own safety.
Truth 4) Citizens who fight back save lives.
Even though the members of this congregation were barred from effective, armed self defense, three of them still jumped up and tackled the gunman when he tried to chase the fleeing pastor down. The shooter's .45 jammed while firing, and he resorted to a knife. Three brave citizens tackled the guy and subdued him despite the knife, and all three were injured doing so. But none were hurt as bad as they put the hurts to the gunman.
Truth 5 - The Final Truth) Gun Control gets people killed.
Would the shooter still have targeted a church if it were common knowledge that most churches had appointed members of their congregation to act as security guards and wear concealed weapons? Would he still be alive if a member of his congregation had been carrying concealed? Would he still be alive, had he been carrying?
You never know. We will never know the outcome of this situation given these factors. But, we do know the outcome of this situation given the GUN CONTROL factor.
And that outcome, is one dead pastor, and three injured innocent men who were forced to attack a knife-wielding gunman with their bare hands.
I have no doubt that the misguided (albet noisy) minority will try to blame this tragedy on the handgun used. They will ignore the truths outlined above. The politicians of Illinois who have kept their state so defenseless over the years should be ashamed.
I agree with Jeepejeep. Gun control, or any other, laws do not apply to criminals. This is a bald statement of the blindingly obvious. Holding people completely responsible for what the bullet they shoot does is the only form of gun control that stands a chance of working. The rest is feel good window dressing.
Liberal and Conservative weapons, not just guns, control laws are primarily designed to remove the ability to fight back from the poorer classes in order to make them even more submissive and dependant. IIRC there are laws out there that make possession of a knife or gun by adult women illegal so they won’t get uppity and threaten the dominating men.
PS: I am proud to be a Liberal and do not see supporting the individual right to be able to defend oneself to be in conflict with Liberal principals. Or common sense.
Sorry, finger slipped. here is video: [SIZE=2]CLICK ON THIS ONE, POWERFUL TESTIMONY! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Also read these; [/SIZE]
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[SIZE=2][SIZE=3]It's far from the high caliber opinion of the Court or those of the Founders who fought for and secured the right:
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] "Besides the [/SIZE][SIZE=3]advantage of being armed[/SIZE][SIZE=3], which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." James Madison, TheFederalist 46[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]"Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted [/SIZE][SIZE=3]for our own defense?[/SIZE][SIZE=3] Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" Patrick Henry[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]"That the Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe on the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent "the people" of the United States who are peaceable citizens from [/SIZE][SIZE=3]keeping their own arms[/SIZE][SIZE=3]." Samuel Adams[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]"A free people ought ... to be [/SIZE][SIZE=3]armed[/SIZE][SIZE=3]." George Washington[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for [/SIZE][SIZE=3]an unarmed man may be attacked[/SIZE][SIZE=3] with greater confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that [/SIZE][SIZE=3]original right of self-defense[/SIZE][SIZE=3] which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state." Alexander Hamilton, TheFederalist No. 28 [/SIZE]
Barkly, here are the steps you have to go through to own a registered machine gun.
1 Purchase the weapon. Most dealers as well sa individuals that are selling their machine guns require 100% payment up front. A Colt M16A1 (factory gun, not a conversion) will run 12,500-14,000 on average.
2 Dealer or individual (only if in the same state) does the transfer paperwork, (200 tax on first transfer if in state on a form 4, no tax if on a form 3 dealer to dealer transfer) 200 tax on transfer to final owner.
3 Purchaser must submit form 4 to local law enforcement for approval, 1934 NFA act dictates this must be approved by local chief law enforcement officer, 2 passport photos are attached to the form 4's, finger print cards are also submitted to ATF with the completed form, signed by local CLEO, accompanied by the citizenship form and your 200.00 check. The fingerprint cards are sent to the FBI for a criminal records check, your information is also run through NCIC as well.
4 After 4-8 months you are approved or rejected, if rejected you will receive a refund of your 200.00 application fee.
For those of you who say 200.00 for the tax stamp is not enough remember this, the 200.00 transfer tax was put into law in 1934, 200.00 was a hardship on most people in those days, and is a very resonable price to pay these days, although the weapons themselves are now very expensive.
The assumption that full auto's are only good for spray and pray is based on someones very limited experience, just because you qualifed with a weapon does not make you an expert in it's design, use or function, or on it's purpose. I deal with them on a daily basis, spray and pray doesn't even enter into things.
Don't groan, just hear me out and think about it for a second...
Listen, even if you don't like guns you still have a right to own one. It is a right, just like free speech or freedom of religion, written in the same document that lately seems to have more value as policial toilet paper. The ability of a body of people to own weapons signifies a people that cannot be dominated or entirely controlled by someone else. Not just hunting, tradion, or personal protection. Bottom Line.
Of course there are cons to the second ammendment. We see shootings and violence every day on the news and sometimes in our front yards. Each act of violence is a tragedy of imense porportions and should not have happened. It is painful for me to even watch them on TV. It is almost impossible to make ammends and go on, but be warned that human nature unfortunately makes it is easier to seek out someone or something to blame. There are no free rides; every freedom comes with a cost and anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.
Soon we will see a new wave of gun control, given strength by fearmongering from polics and the media. They will promise to keep you safe. They will promise you a better world. But, they can't deliver, not any more than they will be able to pay me full social security benefits in 2040. Please realize that by supporting gun control you are exchaging a critical part of your freedom for a shaky promise of security. It's not a fair trade.
More gun control is only the begining of the continued erosion our personal freedoms, and I am sure it won't stop there. I've seen too much of my freedom evaporate in my short life, please don't let them take away any more.
I think this is very well written and intelligent. I agree with you. The problem is the people responding to this post feel compelled to form some ass hat posey shooting their mouths off as if they were John Wayne reincarnated. 2nd amendment doesn't apply to me unless I'm "right" minded.
They're really not all that competant to be handing a firearm. They're candidates for psychotropics. That's the worst enemy of the 2nd amendment. The enemy within, punctuated by arrested development.
Barkly, here are the steps you have to go through to own a registered machine gun.
1 Purchase the weapon. Most dealers as well sa individuals that are selling their machine guns require 100% payment up front. A Colt M16A1 (factory gun, not a conversion) will run 12,500-14,000 on average.
2 Dealer or individual (only if in the same state) does the transfer paperwork, (200 tax on first transfer if in state on a form 4, no tax if on a form 3 dealer to dealer transfer) 200 tax on transfer to final owner.
3 Purchaser must submit form 4 to local law enforcement for approval, 1934 NFA act dictates this must be approved by local chief law enforcement officer, 2 passport photos are attached to the form 4's, finger print cards are also submitted to ATF with the completed form, signed by local CLEO, accompanied by the citizenship form and your 200.00 check. The fingerprint cards are sent to the FBI for a criminal records check, your information is also run through NCIC as well.
4 After 4-8 months you are approved or rejected, if rejected you will receive a refund of your 200.00 application fee.
For those of you who say 200.00 for the tax stamp is not enough remember this, the 200.00 transfer tax was put into law in 1934, 200.00 was a hardship on most people in those days, and is a very resonable price to pay these days, although the weapons themselves are now very expensive.
The assumption that full auto's are only good for spray and pray is based on someones very limited experience, just because you qualifed with a weapon does not make you an expert in it's design, use or function, or on it's purpose. I deal with them on a daily basis, spray and pray doesn't even enter into things.
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