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I can only speak for myself, and when I offer an opinion it is stated as such; if I am talking about an issue that can be backed up, I always attempt to find a source for my assumption, conjecture or argument.
However, I am not much for on-line forum in general, and certainly not those that focus solely on politics. I suppose more than anything else I've learned here is not politics, but how people attempt to make their points, and their failure to see a debate as a serious skill not a shouting match, or a shrug of the shoulder response that offers nothing and adds little.
Thanks for your response and the clarity as you perceive it on the religious posts.
I agree with you concerning the religious arguments. We all must remember that religion is strictly an emotional issue based on faith, mostly void of any facts, so this is expected. In many cases an attack on religion is attacking the core of what many people are and what they've been taught by their friends and family. To question what they've been told by those they consider honorable is considered an insult to these people as well. So, an emotional response is expected.
Well, I don't care to go back through all the posts to provide specific examples, yet greatbasinguide continually uses these tactics. I've been involved in many other forums where the threads have developed in a numbing exercise of who can throw the most insults at the other posters, on both sides. As I stated, though both sides do it, insults are a typical tactic of those on the far left.
Examples:
Bush lied: No evidence.
Illegal War: Supported by the U.N., Congress
Bush should be impeached: No evidence of "high crimes and misdeamenors".
Immoral War: Removing a murderous dictator who has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children?
Strawman?
Terrorists "hate our way of life": Evidence?
The US didn't do anything to these people: Evidence?
The US is a benevolent nation: Evidence?
It goes both ways. So many people simply do not know the facts.
I am neither conservative nor liberal. In fact, I hate those labels. Most people are neither.
LeavingFlorida05, you make a good case. And as I said in my post earlier, so much is about perception.
I just drove across the country from NM to PA and listened to all manner of news stations (couldn't always get what I wanted) and found myself listening to the various perceptions of people who identify as liberal or conservative.
Many of the issues didn't have a single fact but people spun them anyway.
And, I am as much a mixed bag in terms of my political preferences as an independent--that's what the word implies.
Bush lied This is shorthand for, "Members of the Bush Administration lied." There is plenty of evidence, from Colin Powell's lies to the United Nations to Paul Wolfowitz's lies about how the Iraq oil would pay for everything to Scooter Libby's lies, and 100's more. Did Bush lie directly? Let's put it this way -- he either lied, or he believed what he was told, which has to make him one of the dumbest presidents, ever.
Illegal War: Supported by the U.N., Congress
It was only supported by Congress and the U.N. because of the lies.
Bush should be impeached: No evidence of "high crimes and misdeamenors".
Evidence? See number one -- Bush lied.
Immoral War: Removing a murderous dictator who has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children?
We have never before caused hundreds of thousands to be killed in the name of saving them from a murderous dictator. That makes it immoral. They were dead from Saddam; they're now dead from the hornet's nest of religious fanatics we stirred up, and which did not previously exist in secular Iraq. Either way, they're just as dead.
Bring up as many more points as you like. for me, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
GBG, I have read a few of your posts with interest. You sometimes make points I can agree with. I have been a registered Independent since the age of 18. So I guess liberals occasionally make a point with me. Not everything is black & white. However, you are either politically schizophrenic or a flaming liberal masquerading as a thoughtful conservative. You are right about one thing. This is the greatest country in the world since the dawn of time. No king or queen of old would trade places with the least of us. No king or queen of old ever possessed the creature comforts, personal freedoms, degree of security, health & welfare of even the least of us. Therefore we are a nation of kings. I don't really care what party leads us in the defense of that. I am convinced that the democratic party hasn't the courage to lead in anything except it's own narcissic, hedonistic pursuits. They are simply too self absorbed in freeing their self impuned slaves, to understand the threat to the republic. GBG, if you think there is nothing to fear, tell that to Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, the Navy seal that had his throat cut, the disabled jew they killed and threw onto the tarmac, the thousands of dead from blown up airplanes, the 3,000 in the towers, the sailers on the Cole, and on and on and on. One common thread runs in all those attacks which is the U.S. did nothing. We finally defend ourselves and all the libs wet their collective pants. There are a few hundred thousand brave young men and women standing between your spoiled overweight butts and perhaps a billion that would like what you have. You think it is some kind of joke the Republicans are playing on you. You think the Pelosi crowd is going to come to Washington & negotiate it all away. What they are going to do is **** it all away. There is still a chance we could win in Iraq. We all know there is no real win. However, if a win looks like some form of sovereign government and our boys & girls come home having made a long overdue statement about the will of the American people to defend themselves against seventh century barbarians, we will have preserved our kingdom a little while longer and then another generation will, then another.... You libs will get your chance to negotiate.
Oh Yeah, The Nancy Pelousi's of congress are going to save OUR TROOPS buy holding funds until they get................http://newsbusters.org/node/11605
CNN's 'American Morning' Shines A Little Light on Democrats' Pork
Posted by Matthew Balan on March 23, 2007 - 12:51.
That was the focus of Bob Franken's report on CNN's "American Morning," which focused attention on the pork barrel spending proposals in the emergency funding bill for the military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
M. O'BRIEN: "In Washington this morning, Democratic leaders are scrambling for votes on a measure that would put the brakes on the war in Iraq. The vote is going to be tight, and that means it is time to pry the lid off the pork barrel, unfortunately."
FRANKEN, (voice over): "That was the rallying cry from the newly in-charge Democrats, the wheeling and dealing and hidden pork barrel spending would be no more. Fast forward just 10 weeks. Democratic leaders face their biggest challenge so far. The legislation providing $124 billion in war funding, combined with a troop pullout from Iraq next year. And they're using every tool at their command. The same tools they criticized the Republicans for using -- good, old fashioned pork."
REP. MARK KIRK, (R) ILLINOIS: "It would provide $25 million in a bailout for spinach farmers. Another $74 million in taxpayer dollars for peanut storage. And $283 million for milk producers."
FRANKEN: "And farm relief, which creates quite a dilemma for many members, even Republicans."
"Democratic leaders insist this is not pork. It's not just peanut storage, but money for spinach farmers and dairy farmers. Billions, by the way, definitely not peanuts. But Republicans are cutting them no slack."
This was just some highlights of the conversation. So, OUR TROOPS do WITHOUT while peanut farmers get storage. We need to think of OUR TROOPS and how to get this resolved granted we have problems at home but, OUR TROOPS should be top priortity until they are back on U.S. soil!!!
Congress is just arguing or nothing and what kind of support are they showing for our troops. For Liberials to put a bill in attached to saving our soldier's lives. Pelousi is in this for power and not the people. Are they really concerned about the TROOPS???
I would consider myself more independent both sides have good ideas but, the far left and far right are the ones that complicate the situation even more.
Huh, please don't confuse Iraq with Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists, and don't think for a minute the US did nothing. These guys did not get up one morning and decide to hate the US.
An "independent" who accuses others of being "libs" is a rightwingwhacko to me.
Here is the reason. Those who think anyone who disagrees with them must be a lib, is followin Rush and Sean's thinking.
We cannot win in Iraq, there is no win. There is no Iraq, it is a twentieth century construct of the British, it only works with a pitiless strongman running the place.
That we are there, that there are those who thought democracy would come to Iraq, that some think we can "win" just shows how some don't know their history.
In regards to Pelosi et al, I know so little about them that it was just the other day I read where the centrists like Pelosi reined in the further left, the moveon people to get support for the Iraq budget. I know nearly zero about her, or Boxer or Moore or any of the other so called "liberals"
As a conservative, I don't see many like me out there, I see, Rightwingwhackos, those who some how think invading other peoples countries is a good thing, that growing the Federal government by more than any "liberal" ever dreamed of, that sticking our noses into other countries politics, that cutting our civil liberties is conservative, it ain't, it is a rotten philosophy run by morally corrupt individuals, and cheerleaded by the ignorant.
Each one of the persons you mentioned who suffered a terrible death, did so, sadly because of the foreign policy of the United States.
I have never said we had nothing to fear, I have said, WE SURE DO NOW!!! Our chance to make it right went out the window with the the Iraq blunder. You, your children, your grandchildren, your great grandchildren are at risk because of the actions of this administration.
If America had held to the constraints George Washington suggested, we would not have dead Americans scattered across the globe. If America had held to the priniciples we hold dear in our homeland we would not have dead Americans scattered across the globe.
Your post reflected the thinking of the Whackos, you may state you aren't one, but, if I find an apple under a ree, I figure the tree is an apple.
I find it both humorous and sad that if I do not support Iraq and this President then I am considered a liberal. What I am is a person who knows his history.
Just for fun, here are some of my liberal political ideas.
No freeways, only self sustaining tollroads.
No lighthouses, no navigational aids, except those that bill you the user.
No welfare, no medicare, not even for corporations.
National Parks funded by users.
No seatbelt laws, no helmet laws, no nannyism.
No free public education, funded by users.
No government debt, no government borrowing, pay as you go.
Finally, I just returned from the Eastern Med, talking to people, they deeply fear Bush, not Bin Laden, but Bush, Especially the Turks, they understand that if Iraq and Iran go to hell in a hand basket, they are on the front line.
Terrorists "hate our way of life": Evidence?
The US didn't do anything to these people: Evidence?
The US is a benevolent nation: Evidence?
It goes both ways. So many people simply do not know the facts.
I am neither conservative nor liberal. In fact, I hate those labels. Most people are neither.
I've never made these claims, so I personally cannot address them. But, your point is made that both sides do in fact engage in the same activities, though the extreme left, IMO, is much more the participants.
I've never made these claims, so I personally cannot address them. But, your point is made that both sides do in fact engage in the same activities, though the extreme left, IMO, is much more the participants.
Really? Aren't we at war with people who "hate our way of life"?
Examples: Bush lied This is shorthand for, "Members of the Bush Administration lied." There is plenty of evidence, from Colin Powell's lies to the United Nations to Paul Wolfowitz's lies about how the Iraq oil would pay for everything to Scooter Libby's lies, and 100's more. Did Bush lie directly? Let's put it this way -- he either lied, or he believed what he was told, which has to make him one of the dumbest presidents, ever. Illegal War: Supported by the U.N., Congress
It was only supported by Congress and the U.N. because of the lies. Bush should be impeached: No evidence of "high crimes and misdeamenors".
Evidence? See number one -- Bush lied.
Immoral War: Removing a murderous dictator who has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children?
We have never before caused hundreds of thousands to be killed in the name of saving them from a murderous dictator. That makes it immoral. They were dead from Saddam; they're now dead from the hornet's nest of religious fanatics we stirred up, and which did not previously exist in secular Iraq. Either way, they're just as dead.
Bring up as many more points as you like. for me, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Thanks, pslOldTimer, for saving me the time to make these points. They bear repeating because... some people just don't get it. And as long as they are watching "Fox Noise" and being brain washed, I suppose they never will.
Re Saddam Hussein, let me add that he was a "Murderous Dictator" who we rubbed elbows with and armed against the Russians prior to invading and destroying "his" country. "Murderous Dictators" are fine as long as they suit your purpose, I suppose, but after awhile their oil rich, strategically located countries just become TOO TEMPTING!
AmznJohn stated that the U.N. supported U.S. invasion of Iraq. WRONG. The U.N. did not SUPPORT the unilateral invasion of Iraq by the U.S and its 'coalition'. NATO, along with Russia and other countries made up a majority of U.N. members who pushed for a diplomatic resolution with Iraq because of the 'risk to the international community' such an invasion would cause. The U.S. ignored the U.N. and went forward with its invasion.
As an example of brain washing: LeavingFlorida05's comment: Really? Aren't we at war with people who "hate our way of life"?
is a PERFECT example of a brain washing. He/she has absorbed oft' repeated propaganda and considers it his/her own opinion. However...
Anyone who has travelled to the Middle East will tell you, LeavingFlorida05, that, "NO, they don't hate our way of life! They could care less about our way of life." They are too busy living their own damn lives, struggling with their own damn dictators and/or exalted Princes who, while living sumptuous lives inflict a legal and moral code so severe that if a starving person steals a loaf, they'll have their arms chopped off.
Furthermore, they wouldn't know anything about us if we hadn't interjected ourselves into THEIR lives with our military and our political agendas to gain control over their oil. In order to do that we, a nation which supposedly values human rights, have looked the other way as Saudi Arabia subjugates, suppresses and enslaves its own population.
On the flip side, Dafur and other African nations have been suffering through genocides, droughts and expansive starvation and have we lifted one little finger to help them? Hell no... they don't have anything we want.
This is the problem: People sit around and listen to Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh, or Keith Olbermann (who I highly enjoy, btw ), and other liberals (just to be fair) and think they learn about politics, culture, history.
Turn off the t.v. and pick up a book, will ya?
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) and found myself listening to the various perceptions of people who identify as liberal or conservative.
