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The majority don't support the war in Iraq, so they voted for Obama as opposed to McCain. The war is ending.
Ignoring the obvious fallacy this statement is.....lets address the subject...
Is the war ending? Or is it just moving to Afghanistan? I dont seem to recall prolonged action in Afghanistan as a major Obama platform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto
The majority don't support the bailout,
Three polls, all at the same time, give three wildly contradictory pictures of the American public. The Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll says the public opposes taxpayer bailout of Wall Street by 55 percent to 31 percent, a result cited on CNN by David Gergen the night the poll was published. He used the poll to illustrate his point that "the American people" were angry with the thought of using government funds to help Wall Street firms. That theme seemed to dominate several of the networks' coverage of the issue, though it was contradicted by a Pew Research poll, published the same day as the Times/Bloomberg poll. Pew found that "Most Approve of Wall Street Bailout" (by a margin of 57 percent to 30 percent).
A majority vote by those who they represent, you know, true democracy.
I could care less what the founding fathers thought was best, "mob rule" is exactly how things should be done. If you are going to have someone represent a section of people, they should ALWAYS align themselves with the prevailing opinions of the majority of their constituents, and if they arent, they need to be removed.
I have often posted various portions of these sentiments from William Durant paraphrasing Plato.
But even democracy ruins itself by excess–of democracy. Its basic principle is the equal right of all to hold office and determine public policy. This is at first glance a delightful arrangement; it becomes disastrous because the people are not properly equipped by education to select the best rulers and the wisest courses. "As to the people they have no understanding, and only repeat what their rulers are pleased to tell them" (Protagoras, 317); to get a doctrine accepted or rejected it is only necessary to have it praised or ridiculed in a poplar play (a hit, no doubt, at Aristophanes, whose comedies attacked almost every new idea). Mob-rule is a rough sea for the ship of state to ride; every wind of oratory stirs up the waters and deflects the course. The upshot of such a democracy is tyranny or autocracy; the crowd so loves flattery, it is so "hungry for honey," that at last the wiliest and most unscrupulous flatterer, calling himself the "protector of the people" rises to supreme power. (Consider the history of Rome.)
The more Plato thinks of it, the more astounded he is at the folly of leaving to mob caprice and gullibility the selection of political officials–not to speak of leaving it to those shady and wealth-serving strategists who pull the oligarchic wires behind the democratic stage. Plato complains that whereas in simpler matters–like shoe-making–we think only a specially-trained person will serve our purpose, in politics we presume that every one who knows how to get votes knows how to administer a city or a state. When we are ill we call for a trained physician, whose degree is a guarantee of specific preparation and technical competence–we do not ask for the handsomest physician, or the most eloquent one; well then, when the whole state is ill should we not look for the service and guidance of the wisest and the best? To devise a method of barring incompetence and knavery from public office, and of selecting and preparing the best to rule for the common good–that is the problem of political philosophy.
This is also why we have a Republic and not a pure democracy.
it becomes disastrous because the people are not properly equipped by education to select the best rulers and the wisest courses. "As to the people they have no understanding, and only repeat what their rulers are pleased to tell them"
This is precisely why everything would be INDUSTRY based. People would be voting for a representitive who knew their issues well. A farmer would be represented by a farmer. A mechanic by a mechanic. The representitives would NOT be developing ideas on their own. They are not elected to be the voice, they are elected to represent the voice.
The goal is NOT to have leaders develop plans and push them top down on the people, but have the people develop plans, which are communicated from the bottom up.
This is precisely why everything would be INDUSTRY based. People would be voting for a representitive who knew their issues well. A farmer would be represented by a farmer. A mechanic by a mechanic. The representitives would NOT be developing ideas on their own. They are not elected to be the voice, they are elected to represent the voice.
The goal is NOT to have leaders develop plans and push them top down on the people, but have the people develop plans, which are communicated from the bottom up.
The problem with this is that I don't know of very many farmers who are adept at formulating and progressing a sound foreign policy. What "industry" would represent the people in such an endeavor?
The problem with the mob is that it is usually the mob who is running through town saying... hang'm and hang'm high and it is the sheriff who was elected because he was a reasonable man who then says... no, lets give him a trial and if he is guilty, then hang him.
If this country was ruled by the mob then the media would be more powerful than the government (which it already competes with) as the power would reside in the ability to steer the mob and judging by what I have seen, the last thing I want is mob rule in America. Heaven forbid.
I am always contacting my reps, either by email or phone calls. It is a shame that we do not take the example of other nations that take to the streets and demonstrate. We used to but for some reason Americans have become complacent and I'm sorry to say that it seems that the average intelligence has decreased.
We are supposed to be a nation of laws, but we allow war crimes and white collar crime to go unpunished. Proof of all of this is evident by many of the threads and posts on this site. The truth and the facts can bite some of these people on the butt and yet they will only repeat what has been spoon fed to them by propaganda. They never have an epiphany and cannot make an intelligent assessment of facts. Very sad.
puuuhlease(please) everytime you see demonstrations of citizens from europe or anywhere else protesting their goverment, americans all have something smart to say about them esp on fox news and cnn, calling them out of control socialist etc
The problem with this is that I don't know of very many farmers who are adept at formulating and progressing a sound foreign policy. What "industry" would represent the people in such an endeavor?
I got a sound foreign policy for ya, none at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper
If this country was ruled by the mob then the media would be more powerful than the government (which it already competes with) as the power would reside in the ability to steer the mob and judging by what I have seen, the last thing I want is mob rule in America. Heaven forbid.
As opposed to now, where the mob has zero voice, and the country is run by a handful of pricks from the plutocratic oligarchy? Hell, we arent too far from a flat out monarchy. Its going to be a scary day when every year we can pick from a Bush or a Clinton.
Ignoring the obvious fallacy this statement is.....lets address the subject...
Is the war ending? Or is it just moving to Afghanistan? I dont seem to recall prolonged action in Afghanistan as a major Obama platform.
It is hard to argue that politicians, in this case Obama, are not responsive to the public when the public demonstrates such willful ignorance.
Is the war ending, In Iraq yes indeed it is. As for Afghanistan, if there is one point that Obama hammered home throughout the campaign was that he would shift the fight from Iraq to Afghanistan and in doing so would increase the number of troops involved in that conflict.
As opposed to now, where the mob has zero voice, and the country is run by a handful of pricks from the plutocratic oligarchy? Hell, we arent too far from a flat out monarchy. Its going to be a scary day when every year we can pick from a Bush or a Clinton.
The bit of irony here is that I am normally debating the size of the federal government with Ovcatto in favor of smaller government and humble foreign policy and now, I'm having to argue the case for some foreign policy. Guess you just had to be there... nevermind
Well, it is a bit humorous that I'm one of those tin foil hat wearing Ron Paul types who is very much in opposition to our grand military adventures in foreign lands.
You say we don't need any foreign policy, well like it or not, we live in a global community now and if we are to survive, we have to remain competitive. To do this, we rely upon foreign markets just as they rely upon us for specific goods that one nation may have but another does not. In order to keep business flowing, this sometimes requires political intervention and diplomacy, and yes, sadly even a military component in case other means fail. My view is that business tends to be better and folks are happy and chipper when they don't have a gun shoved in their face with the trigger man making suggestions, but that's just me. The point is, you have to have some foreign policy as when it is sound, it negates the need to have to enter into conflict in the first place.
As to the mob not having a voice, of course they do, but they choose to remain silent. Americans have had it good and they have had it good for a long time now. We are a plump and happy people with a standard of living far above that of much of the world. Why would people desire to take to the streets to protest when things are really not that bad. Now this may change dramatically over the course of this next year and people may actually take to the streets to voice their concerns, as people usually do when they are unhappy.
People will never realize they are a nation of sheep, ruled by wolves, owned by pigs until they wake up one day to find the nation their forefathers fought to bring into existence, no longer exist in the manner of which they believed. Until such a time comes, and it may or may not come, I can only say prepare yourself and hope it doesn't get that bad. What else are you going to do?
What allot of people fail to understand is that the United States is NOT a democracy it IS a constitutional republic. For those that do not understand the difference between the two, look it up.
While it United State may reflect some democratic tendencies, we are not at the mercy of the majority trying to impose there ideals on the minority. An example would be trying to do away with the 2nd amendment, the right to bare arms. Even if the majority of the people in the U.S. elected to ban firearms from public access they could not do this, for this is NOT an issue up for a democratic vote.
In a Constitutional Republic the people control the powers of the government and it is the people who provide the protection from the government, the people are the final judge on these powers, not the government. The federal government does not have the power or the authority to restrict or enhance its own power, this is why a constitution was put into place.
You hear politicians always say, "We are a democracy", when the truth is we're not, but we are slowly worming our way toward this ideology. Another example of this idea of a democracy, is when the majority of the peoples figure out that they can grant themselves benefits from the government at the expense of the minority. This is not how our country was founded, nor is it the right of the federal government to impose upon the States or the Peoples.
What allot of people fail to understand is that the United States is NOT a democracy it IS a constitutional republic. For those that do not understand the difference between the two, look it up.
While it United State may reflect some democratic tendencies, we are not at the mercy of the majority trying to impose there ideals on the minority. An example would be trying to do away with the 2nd amendment, the right to bare arms. Even if the majority of the people in the U.S. elected to ban firearms from public access they could not do this, for this is NOT an issue up for a democratic vote.
In a Constitutional Republic the people control the powers of the government and it is the people who provide the protection from the government, the people are the final judge on these powers, not the government. The federal government does not have the power or the authority to restrict or enhance its own power, this is why a constitution was put into place.
You hear politicians always say, "We are a democracy", when the truth is we're not, but we are slowly worming our way toward this ideology. Another example of this idea of a democracy, is when the majority of the peoples figure out that they can grant themselves benefits from the government at the expense of the minority. This is not how our country was founded, nor is it the right of the federal government to impose upon the States or the Peoples.
in short.
Democracy = mob rule at the whim of emotions
Constitutional republic = Law and rights rule. Where emotion does not apply
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