All this talk of socialism really makes me convinced we should have more of it (regular, Clinton)
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Um, I dont know where you picked this tripe up from. Communism removes the private ownership of the means of production and eliminates class. It does not erase the market. In fact, on the contrary, it actually PLANS the market, which means trade exists, and products have a value, labor value, which can be measured, AND compensated.
Have you even read the Communist Manifesto?
The idea is to create a Utopian society that removes currency from everyday life, and removes individuality. That is why there are no brand names, only one style of house, car, everything. If you had read the book you would know that the eventual goal is to remove the monetary factors that divide normal societies.
That is why it is called Communism; Working for the collective, NOT yourself. You do not earn money, that is not the purpose of a Communist society. However, pure Communism obviously cannot exist in the purest form, hence why there is a compromise (Socialism). A nation must maintain some kind of international trade. If anything, the Soviets practiced Nationalistic Communism. Instead of devoting yourself to each other, you are devoted to your country. A dangerous ideal that Marx also addressed in his book.
The idea is to create a Utopian society that removes currency from everyday life, and removes individuality. That is why there are no brand names, only one style of house, car, everything. If you had read the book you would know that the eventual goal is to remove the monetary factors that divide normal societies.
That is why it is called Communism; Working for the collective, NOT yourself. You do not earn money, that is not the purpose of a Communist society. However, pure Communism obviously cannot exist in the purest form, hence why there is a compromise (Socialism). A nation must maintain some kind of international trade. If anything, the Soviets practiced Nationalistic Communism. Instead of devoting yourself to each other, you are devoted to your country. A dangerous ideal that Marx also addressed in his book.
You couldn't possible paint a better picture of the evil genius of communism. Not once is it mentioned in the movie and by the end of the movie you'll hate capitalism too. it points out all kinds of inherent evils in our society then provides a utopia. I'll be honest it had me thinking. Then I realized it when they said the means of production would have no governing body. The people owned everything.
Is Britain a social democracy? Thought I had read that.
Whatever part of their govt allows remote searching without a warrant - it's sort of creepy. (Don't live in Britain, don't know these websites, don't know if it is fact or fiction, but it's on a lot of sites.)
My guess is that it is meant to combat terrorism and criminals - which is a good thing. But very Orwellian (George Orwell 1984) even for people with nothing to hide.
Quote:
Shami Chakrabarti, director of the human rights campaign group Liberty, said such a vast expansion of police powers should be regulated by a new Act of Parliament and that police should be forced to apply to a court for a warrant to hack into computers.
She said: "This is no different from breaking down someone's door, rifling through their paperwork and seizing their computer hard drive."
THE Home Office has quietly adopted a new plan to allow police across Britain routinely to hack into people’s personal computers without a warrant.
The move, which follows a decision by the European Union’s council of ministers in Brussels, has angered civil liberties groups and opposition MPs. Police set to step up hacking of home PCs - Times Online
The Home Office in the UK has reportedly adopted a new plan to allow police across Britain to routinely hack into people's personal computers without a warrant, allowing police or MI5 officers to covertly examine the hard drive of someone's PC at his home, office or hotel room -- all from a remote location.
The pronouncement comes after a decision by the European Union's council of ministers in Brussels expanding the implementation of a statute permitting warrant-less surveillance of private property. Material gathered by "remote searching" includes the content of all emails, Internet browsing history and instant messaging. Police Across Britain Prepare For Remote Searching of Home PCs / Infopackets.com
Who in Gods name would even consider abandoning the free market and giving in to socialism??!! What has happen to us??!! Please will the real Americans please stand up!!!!
I don't for the life of me understand why everyone wanting the "European" lifestyle in America just doesn't pack up and move to Europe ?! That would solve their problems in just a couple days time ! And imagine how much they could all boost the economy in Europe... WOW ! They'd be THE super power !!! No more fighting and arguing to give up rights, already accomplished that . They have the perfect society. What is everyone waiting for ?
Instead everyone wants to cry how bad it is in America and how we need to be more like this society or that society... simple solution. Pack up and MOVE ! Nothing is holding you back. You have the FREEDOM to do that... still.
New Harmony is the site of two of America's great utopian communities. The first, Harmonie on the Wabash (1814-1824), was founded by the Harmony Society, a group of Separatists from the German Lutheran Church. In 1814, led by their charismatic leader Johann Georg Rapp, they left their first American home, Harmonie, PA. Indiana's lower Wabash Valley on the western frontier gave them the opportunity to acquire a much larger tract of land. In 1825, the Harmonists moved back to Pennsylvania and built the town of Economy near Pittsburgh. Robert Owen, Welsh-born industrialist and social philosopher, bought their Indiana town and the surrounding lands for his communitarian experiment.
Owen's community at New Harmony lasts just two years, from 1825 to 1827, but it is followed in the 1840s by many other similar experiments in north America. They are based posthumously on the ideas of the French social theorist, Charles Fourier, who has proposed an ideal community which he calls a 'phalanx'. Each phalanx is to include a balanced mix of workers, combining all the necessary skills. A community of 1620 people is suggested as the ideal size.
As many as twenty-eight Fourier phalanxes are founded in the USA. Most of them soon collapse. The one which makes the movement famous, Brook Farm near Boston, lasts from 1841 to 1847. But in this same decade two young men in Paris are evolving a more ruthless concept of socialism.
Marx, Engels and historical materialism: AD 1844-1848
Marx and Engels argue that development in human society is driven not by people's will or by any cultural, legal or political achievement, but by a single economic factor - the inexorable advance in the technology of production.
In the Marxist theory of history, changes in methods of production lie behind mankind's progression through certain predictable stages. In the recent past there has been feudalism, which has now given way to the 19th-century triumph of the bourgeoisie. In the future there is the imminent Dictatorship of the Proletariat, after which an interim period of Socialism will give way to the final achievement of Communism.
Bourgeoisie- members of the middle class
Proletariat- the laboring class ; especially : the class of industrial workers who lack their own means of production and hence sell their labor to live
Problem with Communism is it's too ideal for our primitive state of development. All these people try to create utopian societies from the outside structures and they always crumble or get overtaken by corruption and greed.
Capitalism serves our current self-interest that only extends as far as ourselves for now. We're not evolved enough yet to actually make Communism work.
I don't for the life of me understand why everyone wanting the "European" lifestyle in America just doesn't pack up and move to Europe ?! That would solve their problems in just a couple days time ! And imagine how much they could all boost the economy in Europe... WOW ! They'd be THE super power !!! No more fighting and arguing to give up rights, already accomplished that . They have the perfect society. What is everyone waiting for ?
Instead everyone wants to cry how bad it is in America and how we need to be more like this society or that society... simple solution. Pack up and MOVE ! Nothing is holding you back. You have the FREEDOM to do that... still.
Moving and working in a foreign country is not a simple thing, for many professions it's not even possible. Americans have the right to speak out and fight for change in their own country. The ultra conservatives constantly complain about the way things are done here, but I don't see anyone telling them to move to an island and start their own country with no government.
Problem with Communism is it's too ideal for our primitive state of development. All these people try to create utopian societies from the outside structures and they always crumble or get overtaken by corruption and greed.
Capitalism serves our current self-interest that only extends as far as ourselves for now. We're not evolved enough yet to actually make Communism work.
You just didnt say something like..
We're not evolved enough to travel to other galaziesel like those "evolved" aliens!!!
The problem with communism is that it offers no incentive to be creative, succeed, take risks, and be self supportive. It sure in the hell seperates the rich from the poor, making those with the power excessivly rich while veryone else excessivly poor.
For the life of me, I cant figure out why the same individuals who complain that CEO's make to much money are all for giving up individual powers and offering select individuals 100% control over all of the monetary policies that would control every waking moment of their lives, (and death). Obviously they havent thought the idea through enough to understand that the right sure in the hell doesnt want someone like Obama dictating policies and the left, well imagine if Bush was the one in charge..
Guess like all questions of any depth the answer starts with "It depends..."
1) Do you believe people can actually implement socialism in an idealized way? I believe the USSR illustrated that it's unlikely. On the other hand Kibutzes (spelling?) are often cited as illustrations that it works. To which reply, I believe it can work in small groups with shared goals and threats.
2) If you believe as I mention above, then the question becomes more one of goal posting. How much socialism is enough to have a peaceful world while not ignoring the personal need of people to see a strong correlation between their efforts and their personal rewards?
You might just as well be asking, "How should we set pricing relationships and distribution?" Or, even more elementally, "What is fair?"
For example, we could all agree to engineer all markets with the goal that all fluctuations, volatility is zero or easily predictable and able to be planned for. But how would you do that and not get resistance from entrenced interests? Or even from other corners. Machiavelli said something to the effect that "he who proposes change will get resistance from those who would suffer from it and but lukewarm reception from those that may benefit".
In the end what I see the problem as being is just that... moving targets. Seems to me we should be designing a world where one can live one's life with at least the following attributes:
1) High quality of life
2) Ability to plan a life and actually live it (i.e no moving targets)
3) No bubbles or depressions (i.e everything on an even, predictable keel)
Pragmatically that might mean things like "full employment" and "zero inflation". Yeah, try to get Wall Street or other upper echelons to agree to that. After all it is volatility that allows them to do what they do. (Not to different from a casino really, especially if you consider the math involved.)
Thank you for in depth, dogma free zone commentary. I'm going to use this post as a new thread because this particular thread has become the catch all for arguments happening in 20 other threads.
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. They have the perfect society. What is everyone waiting for ?
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