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Old 04-01-2009, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,224 posts, read 4,990,065 times
Reputation: 908

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
Yeah governments do all that for free...

I can't believe you folks would rather have a politician get your medical information and decipher it for you then to just talk to the doctor himself/herself. We all know how politicians look out for the little man. No one makes better choices for yourself than you and you alone. You allow a politician to make those decisions and you officially converted the health carer system into the High School popularity contest. It should be very clear to everyone that you can hire government or corporations, both have the same results. I know it's crazy but people really do look out for themselves despite their swagger or their affiliations in government or industry. The only thing that used to keep those in check were consumer power. Take away the freedom of choice and watch your power as a consumer disappear into a black hole.
BigJOHn.. there you go again..

Here is the old party line : a politician will be making heatlchare decisions..

It's a lie put out by the right ..its nonsense. REad up on the UK system.. the government is NOT making the decisions.. and neither is a pencil pusher watching the profit clock at some corporation. The Dr is!

It's false information like this being pumped into our society that stops people from thinking for themselves and actually really arming themselves with the RIGHT information that really angers me.. and saddens me too. If you are all on here you're obviously intelligent enough to have your own thoughts rather than regurgitate lies and exagerated truths.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,581,341 times
Reputation: 24857
At least my party line considers everybody to be a citizen even if they are not economicaly productive. Yours does not.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
1,105 posts, read 4,560,407 times
Reputation: 632
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
Yeah governments do all that for free...

I can't believe you folks would rather have a politician get your medical information and decipher it for you then to just talk to the doctor himself/herself. We all know how politicians look out for the little man. No one makes better choices for yourself than you and you alone. You allow a politician to make those decisions and you officially converted the health carer system into the High School popularity contest. It should be very clear to everyone that you can hire government or corporations, both have the
And the insurance company execs really are looking out for the little man too

Why is it any different allowing the government to make those choices for you vs corporate execs whose ONLY concern is their board and the bottom line. Doctors and patients today always have to find out what the insurance covers, what they will pay for. Please tell me how that is any different? I honestly don't understand. If the government cant do anything right then why the hell do we all live here?
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
5,224 posts, read 4,990,065 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
That's one of the biggest party lines available. What do you consider COBRA (http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/health-plans/cobra.htm - broken link) and unemployment if not a form of welfare?

Why do you think COBRA (http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/health-plans/cobra.htm - broken link) cost so much to people?

COBRA is NOt welfare.. all you are doing is taking over the payments the company would have been making for you if you were employed or a period of .. I believe 18 months. .. and you are paying for it yourself out of your own now unemployed pocket!!! BTW..

Only recently has the gov't stepped in to help with COBRA payments because people are loosing their jobs in droves and it's getting harder to find new jobs.. which wuold leave millions on top of the already millions uninsured and further threaten or deteriorate the economic welfare of the families affected in this economy.

Unemployment is paid by employers.. like an insurance plan. If they don't use it they still have to pay into it.. and if they have to lay off then people collect it. hardly welfare.. especially since you have to be actively looking for work when collecting it and it runs out eventually.

BTW.. Cobra plans are much cheaper than it would cost an employee to go out and purchase a "private" plan because the fired or axed employee is getting the benefit of the employers group discount rate.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:11 AM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,357,826 times
Reputation: 4798
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
BigJOHn.. there you go again..

Here is the old party line : a politician will be making heatlchare decisions..

It's a lie put out by the right ..its nonsense. REad up on the UK system.. the government is NOT making the decisions.. and neither is a pencil pusher watching the profit clock at some corporation. The Dr is!

It's false information like this being pumped into our society that stops people from thinking for themselves and actually really arming themselves with the RIGHT information that really angers me.. and saddens me too. If you are all on here you're obviously intelligent enough to have your own thoughts rather than regurgitate lies and exagerated truths.
The false information that's being pumped into our society is that your elected officials care about you. They care so much in fact they just raised your obligations to the public debt from $30k a person to $60K a person. At current health insurance rates for a single person that in itself would cover 400 months of coverage. Instead the government is going to collect it for you, take it's share and then pay for the service. I have my own thoughts if you haven't noticed. It's you that's actually pumping party lines and claiming politicians are better suited to make your decisions than you are. If you haven't noticed this latest appointee couldn't even manage her own taxes, as well as the last democratic nomination. But you somehow think they are going to throw a system together "for the people".
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:16 AM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,357,826 times
Reputation: 4798
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
At least my party line considers everybody to be a citizen even if they are not economically productive. Yours does not.
Everyone is a citizen.... even the elected officials. My party lines only uphold the belief that a politician only has their own interest in mind. Just like any individual will. The farther and less adjacent those people are to each other the less they actually care. Economically productive? You mean like tax payers that were paying their homes noticing the government giving handout and the only stipulation is that they have trouble paying their bills. You'll never guess what those self serving individuals did? You'll also never guess at what other responsible home owners thought about their own mortgages when the government stepped in. Octomom is real if you haven't noticed and those are the type of folks subsidies take care of, non productive welfare queens. The same thing will happen when they realize they can just show up to the doctor for anything.

And it's a very easy path to follow. There will be outrage at paying for people that are fat slobs. Then congress will come to the rescue by taking more tax dollars. If you haven't noticed government looks at it's people currently as a big pool of money, endless money. If they can get $100 why not $105? $105 why not $110? And the same tired lines will be used, you want everyone to die. Look how compassionate you are. It's a simple answer and easy, you sign up for the UHC and you can watch the entire country crumble not just 7, 8, 9% of it. We are all in this together right? I mean after all we have seen how adding more and more "coverage" has lowered it's obligations and we have seen that yearly right? Last I noticed it's around $52 trillion and set to overtake the entire GDP. So to solve that we take away competition and add more people. This goes perfectly with Bush having cut off our hand and Obama solving it by cutting off our arms.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,032 posts, read 24,566,362 times
Reputation: 20164
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrfitchett4 View Post
how many people live in france compared to the US? And since when is France right winged, did I miss the revolution?
Disabled in England? Guess you don't have much time left if something else happens to you. Cost effieciency and all, hope you don't mind. And don't act like they don't refuse care, because Obama wants to model his plan after that one.
In America we have healthcare for the disabled, the elderly and children. Everyone else should be able to fend for themselves. People choose to live in poverty because they are lazy and don't want to work to better. I shouldn't have to foot their bill too.

France has had a right wing government for 14 years. I guess current affairs and politics are not your forte. In Europe ONLY Britain , Spain and Portugal have left wing governments ( if you can call "new labour" left wing which is really stretching it and Spain only very recently). Yet ALL of Europe has Universal healthcare.
I am surprised you did not know that .

People do not choose to live in poverty nor are they lazy .A small minority of people are lazy , the vast majority are not.

I am sad to see so many Americans not believing in society. If you chose to be part of society then you start having to shoulder some responsibility for other human beings more vulnerable than yourself. That is what a society is about.

Selfish behaviour is perfect for completely self sufficient people . If you are a survivalist somewhere in deepest Montana and literally owe nothing to anyone then I will accept your reasoning.


If you make your own clothes, guns, kill your own food and have nothing to do with commercialism in any way shape of form , if you do not use roads, do not expect the army get killed for you, if you will put your own fire out by yourself when your house is on fire etc... then taxes make no sense whatsover. Even as a liberal left wing socialist, I can accept that. In fact I quite admire self sufficient people. Except in my entire life I have met about 6 .

If you are living among society then you have rights as well as responsibilities because we are all linked one way or another.

To be so blind to the obvious is mind boggling. Unless you live like a hermit you owe as much to the people at the bottom of the ladder as you do to those on the upper echelons. In fact a lot more.


Poverty is NOT a choice. It is not a lifestyle.

Yes a teeny-tiny minority will be deabeats who will have chosen to drop out of society but the vast majority are people who through whatever life's circumstances cannot go further than they are.

We are ALL different. Some of us can born into a ghetto and rise to CEO, the vast majority cannot. Not because they are stupid or lazy but for a myriad of other reasons.


As for being disabled in the UK, actually life is fine here compared to what it would be in the US. Try to get health insurance if you have a pre-existing condition or previous health problems like leukaemia. Losing my comfortable lifestyle and home simply so I can afford healthcare just does not sound that much fun to me. Go figure, I like being middle class with the security to know that being sick is not tantamount to a crime... I wonder why.


But thank you for your concerns. Much appreciated. The milk of human kindness flows with every letter you type....

Last edited by Mooseketeer; 04-01-2009 at 07:46 AM..
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:29 AM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,357,826 times
Reputation: 4798
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenn02674 View Post
And the insurance company execs really are looking out for the little man too

Why is it any different allowing the government to make those choices for you vs corporate execs whose ONLY concern is their board and the bottom line. Doctors and patients today always have to find out what the insurance covers, what they will pay for. Please tell me how that is any different? I honestly don't understand. If the government cant do anything right then why the hell do we all live here?
Government can do things right. Roads for example, Police, Armies. It can't run business though because it's diametrically opposed to the best interest of the company. They will be making decisions based on popularity not good business sense. You missed my point. Both Industry or government in total control is bad. They didn't write we the people for no reason. Also insurance companies right now are not in true competition. they hold monopolies over states through government planning. Of course they set the rules. If people had a choice to decide what health insurance was best for them by having more than 2 or 3 state assisted monopolies things would be different and waste would be taken care of.

Government is just like a leech. Left unchecked it will suck you dry. When used intelligently it can be a great medical tool. The road to socialism isn't a one day you're free then the next you're not. Election by election you vote your freedoms away. Some would say you have more freedom with "free" health care. I would ask them what's free about someone else running your life for you?
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:33 AM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,357,826 times
Reputation: 4798
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy View Post
COBRA is NOt welfare.. all you are doing is taking over the payments the company would have been making for you if you were employed or a period of .. I believe 18 months. .. and you are paying for it yourself out of your own now unemployed pocket!!! BTW..

Only recently has the gov't stepped in to help with COBRA payments because people are loosing their jobs in droves and it's getting harder to find new jobs.. which wuold leave millions on top of the already millions uninsured and further threaten or deteriorate the economic welfare of the families affected in this economy.

Unemployment is paid by employers.. like an insurance plan. If they don't use it they still have to pay into it.. and if they have to lay off then people collect it. hardly welfare.. especially since you have to be actively looking for work when collecting it and it runs out eventually.

BTW.. Cobra plans are much cheaper than it would cost an employee to go out and purchase a "private" plan because the fired or axed employee is getting the benefit of the employers group discount rate.
No I'm paying for others out of my own pocket along with my own health care.

Quote:
A federal subsidy to help laid-off workers extend their employer health care passed the House on Wednesday, January 28, as part of the $819 billion economic stimulus bill. One item, however, has employers in an uproar. That is a provision making employers responsible for extending health coverage permanently to former employees 55 or older or those who worked for the company for at least 10 years.
And unlike the measure to make it cheaper (http://www.workforce.com/archive/article/26/09/47.php - broken link) for workers to extend employer health care under the federal law known as COBRA (http://www.workforce.com/section/search_results.php?account=1005&q=%22COBRA%22&Go=S earch&sort_by=publish_date - broken link), this provision would be permanent.
House Passes Stimulus Bill With COBRA Subsidy | workforce.com

subsidy-
: a grant or gift of money: as a: a sum of money formerly granted by the British Parliament to the crown and raised by special taxation b: money granted by one state to another c: a grant by a government to a private person or company to assist an enterprise deemed advantageous to the public


The key word is deemed. Don't get me wrong either Bush made things much worse with his drug rule.
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:09 AM
 
8,580 posts, read 9,068,935 times
Reputation: 5898
"A federal subsidy to help laid-off workers extend their employer health care passed the House on Wednesday, January 28, as part of the $819 billion economic stimulus bill. One item, however, has employers in an uproar. That is a provision making employers responsible for extending health coverage permanently to former employees 55 or older or those who worked for the company for at least 10 years.
And unlike the measure to make it cheaper for workers to extend employer health care under the federal law known as COBRA, this provision would be permanent."

No doubt if that statement becomes law, many employers will be looking to fire those approaching 10 years of employment and or those approaching 55. Bad idea because I know many who would do this and find a false reason to fire.
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