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Old 04-16-2009, 10:58 PM
 
Location: North Cackelacky....in the hills.
19,567 posts, read 21,809,727 times
Reputation: 2519

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Quote:
Originally Posted by happ View Post
If you need to ask an American why he should love President Lincoln than I know already that you are not looking for an answer but just another petty reason to support Confederate hate! Get over the Civil War! Geez!
Nothing you can simply jot down???

Okay.

I think Lincoln was a tyrant and FDR was little better.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:03 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,251,465 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by happ View Post
It's not an enticement but merely a recognition that all these people need the basics of care [schooling\ medical treatment\ housing]. Otherwise it would be chaos & a danger for others. That's why giving driver licenses to the undocumented helps all Californians [including insurance coverage]. Once the immigrant is here it is the federal government's duty to take care of the situation. Yes, we do provide services other state's don't but only because the federal government under Bush did nothing. President Obama will finally resolve this huge problem.
No, it is not the federal government's (i.e., American taxpayer's) "duty" to take care of the medical/employment/housing/educational needs of illegal immigrants. It is, however, the "duty" of the federal government of the home nation of these illegal immigrants.

It's usually white middle-class liberals who argue your line of thought. And white liberals whose own standard of living is not being affected by the overwhelmingly negative impacts of upwards of 20 million illegal immigrants in this nation. Usually: their health care benefits aren't affected; the hospitals they turn to in times of medical need are not overrun with illegal immigrants, requiring severe cuts in wellness programs, long waiting hours in ER rooms, etc.; the schools their children attend don't have to cut programs to accommodate the children of illegal immigrants; their neighborhoods haven't been ruined by violence and overcrowding; etc. In other words, they don't live the real-world effects on other Americans. And because they don't live it, or even see it, they claim it must not be true. It's nothing less than class myopia--an old story. Further, they are so terrified of being called "racist," they are willing to turn their backs on the needs of Americans of a lower class, who have no political clout, whose entirely justified outrage at being shoved aside in favor of illegal immigrants is met with a smug, white, middle-class sneer, and accusations of racism. When what it's really about is divesting oneself of imagined white liberal guilt and/or not wanting to give up the cheap immigrant labor.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:07 PM
 
Location: los angeles
5,032 posts, read 12,575,904 times
Reputation: 1508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewzerr68 View Post
I'm very much a liberal, but this is one issue I'm NEVER EVER going to agree with you on. It has affected members of my family very personally, and without going into all the painful details of that, let's just say that when you're a member of the educated working class, which I am, you get the shaft from affording these things to illegals.

Bottom line: Illegal immigration is still ILLEGAL. Criminals give up their rights when they are convicted of a crime, so why should we give illegals rights while we snatch them away from hard working U.S. citizens.
I don't think you are considering the reason why we try our best to keep people healthy & educated. To do otherwise would be far worse. Its like ignoring that your neighbors have a serious contagious illness even if it may mean getting infected. Unregulated behavior creates problems as we painfully know with the recent Wall Street scandals. I am not supporting that California adopt every poor person in the world but those who live among us need to be kept healthy & provided basic services unless one wants to risk the good of all Americans.

Having said that, I am furious that the federal government has allowed the border to be unprotected. I can not believe with all the technology available that supervision of the border isn't possible. I even believe that the troops coming home from Iraq should be put on the border until a better system can be installed. Also, America needs to be involved in other American countries not the Middle East. Mexico needs our help with the serious drug trade & helping Mexico build their middle-class so people don't need to flee to the United States. Preventing the problem is the solution in the long run.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:15 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,251,465 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by happ View Post
I don't think you are considering the reason why we try our best to keep people healthy & educated. To do otherwise would be far worse. Its like ignoring that your neighbors have a serious contagious illness even if it may mean getting infected. Unregulated behavior creates problems as we painfully know with the recent Wall Street scandals. I am not supporting that California adopt every poor person in the world but those who live among us need to be kept healthy & provided basic services unless one wants to risk the good of all Americans.

Having said that, I am furious that the federal government has allowed the border to be unprotected. I can not believe with all the technology available that supervision of the border isn't possible. I even believe that the troops coming home from Iraq should be put on the border until a better system can be installed. Also, America needs to be involved in other American countries not the Middle East. Mexico needs our help with the serious drug trade & helping Mexico build their middle-class so people don't need to flee to the United States. Preventing the problem is the solution in the long run.
Mexico is the richest nation in Latin America. The Mexican illegal immigrants living in California need to go home. If employers were seriously penalized for hiring illegai immigrants, those same immigrants would self-deport. It's outrageous to demand that American taxpayers--many of whom are struggling themselves-- sacrifice in those same areas (medical, education, etc.) in order to support people who are in this country illegally and who already have a country of their own. Furthermore, it's bizarrely racist to assert that illegal immigrants not be held accountable for their actions. If there were 20 million French-Canadians taking advantage of a porous border, making demands on American citizens to provide them with medical care, educational opportunity, free legal care, and jobs--I somehow think you wouldn't be quite so cavalier in dismissing the concerns of the Americans whose own lives would be seriously compromised in an acquiescence to such demands. But because the illegal immigrants are nonwhite, by and large, somehow they are magically transformed into hapless "victims," full of love and goodwill, with nary a machiavellian bone in their body. Please. They know exactly what they're doing. And they know exactly how to take full advantage of white liberal guilt.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:16 PM
 
Location: los angeles
5,032 posts, read 12,575,904 times
Reputation: 1508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
How will he do this & how will CA keep from going bankrupt ? Higher Taxes ?

I think the nation would like to know.
Well for a start, it is wise for Obama to be in Mexico tonight & will be meeting w/ Latin American leaders tomorrow. The issue of the economy will be the focus & President Obama knows that we will take a lot of criticizing from these other countries for the global recession\ depression. Stopping the flow of immigrants into the US must be viewed as a mutual problem that will require investment in helping Mexico & other Central & South American countries to take care of their own people. Birth control & tighter regulation of the population is needed. Brazil has been very innovative with alternative fuels [sugar] & the US can learn from their great president Lalu [a pragmatic socialist]. The world is changing & America needs to be very involved in setting a course & example for the world.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:32 PM
 
Location: los angeles
5,032 posts, read 12,575,904 times
Reputation: 1508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
Mexico is the richest nation in Latin America. The Mexican illegal immigrants living in California need to go home. If employers were seriously penalized for hiring illegai immigrants, those same immigrants would self-deport. It's outrageous to demand that American taxpayers--many of whom are struggling themselves-- sacrifice in those same areas (medical, education, etc.) in order to support people who are in this country illegally and who already have a country of their own.
It's just not practical what you are suggesting [even Bush & McCain said so]. You can not extradite children born in America nor send 12 million people home. We have to live with the fact that they are here & help them become US citizens. The border has to be controlled so that more people can not gain easy entry. That has to be the first goal & it is a real shame that we have made no progress on this problem well before Bush.

Also, most immigrants also pay taxes [by purchasing goods]. The state of California as well as Arizona, New Mexico & Texas would collapse into greater economic turmoil if we tried to export undocumented workers [who would pick the crops? for one]. Also the Catholic church would force civil disobedience if there were mass deportations. I know, I once worked at a Catholic social service agency where the archbishop instructed all employees to defy the US government. Can you see trying to remove people while priests & nuns lay down in the street to stop the ICE buses [they have done this in LA].

It is a very complicated problem that should probably be addressed on the immigration forum instead of this thread.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,153,845 times
Reputation: 4937
We are sending 1000's of illegal immigrants "home" each week.

We have to "kick it up a notch"
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:47 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,251,465 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by happ View Post
It's just not practical what you are suggesting [even Bush & McCain said so]. You can not extradite children born in America nor send 12 million people home. We have to live with the fact that they are here & help them become US citizens. The border has to be controlled so that more people can not gain easy entry. That has to be the first goal & it is a real shame that we have made no progress on this problem well before Bush.

Also, most immigrants also pay taxes [by purchasing goods]. The state of California as well as Arizona, New Mexico & Texas would collapse into greater economic turmoil if we tried to export undocumented workers [who would pick the crops? for one]. Also the Catholic church would force civil disobedience if there were mass deportations. I know, I once worked at a Catholic social service agency where the archbishop instructed all employees to defy the US government. Can you see trying to remove people while priests & nuns lay down in the street to stop the ICE buses [they have done this in LA].

It is a very complicated problem that should probably be addressed on the immigration forum instead of this thread.
First of all, please stop parroting the "12 million" number. It's patently obvious that it is far more than 12 million.

You've also ignored the comment that there is no need to deport or "send them home." If there are no jobs available, they will go home on their own. And in that reality, priests and nuns would have no reason to lie down in the streets to stop ICE buses.

Typically, you've just decided to ignore the facts of their negative impact on the daily lives of other Americans, who are just expected to sacrifice on their behalf.

The fact that immigrants pay taxes by purchasing goods is irrelevant. Furthermore, the assertion that the economies of California and Texas would "collapse" without illegal immigrants is patently absurd. As for who would pick the crops: only 5% of illegal immigrants are migrant field workers.

In sum, you ignore the aspects of the problem you don't wish to address. And you are perfectly willing to sacrifice the living standards of other Americans, appear to have no concern for the devastating ecological effects of the exploding population growth as the result of illegal immigrants, assume a racist stance in asserting (by default) that brown people, unlike white people, should not be held accountable for their criminal actions, especially since they are all pure and innocent, while all Americans (white, brown, or black) who wish to have their immigration laws enforced, are somehow morally deficient--all in the service of your mindless liberal need to feel as though you are inhabiting a morally superior ground. But you don't inhabit a morally superior ground--you are merely serving your own ideological blindness.
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Old 04-17-2009, 12:13 AM
 
Location: los angeles
5,032 posts, read 12,575,904 times
Reputation: 1508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
First of all, please stop parroting the "12 million" number. It's patently obvious that it is far more than 12 million.

You've also ignored the comment that there is no need to deport or "send them home." If there are no jobs available, they will go home on their own. And in that reality, priests and nuns would have no reason to lie down in the streets to stop ICE buses.

Typically, you've just decided to ignore the facts of their negative impact on the daily lives of other Americans, who are just expected to sacrifice on their behalf.

The fact that immigrants pay taxes by purchasing goods is irrelevant. Furthermore, the assertion that the economies of California and Texas would "collapse" without illegal immigrants is patently absurd. As for who would pick the crops: only 5% of illegal immigrants are migrant field workers.

In sum, you ignore the aspects of the problem you don't wish to address. And you are perfectly willing to sacrifice the living standards of other Americans, appear to have no concern for the devastating ecological effects of the exploding population growth as the result of illegal immigrants, assume a racist stance in asserting (by default) that brown people, unlike white people, should not be held accountable for their criminal actions, especially since they are all pure and innocent, while all Americans (white, brown, or black) who wish to have their immigration laws enforced, are somehow morally deficient--all in the service of your mindless liberal need to feel as though you are inhabiting a morally superior ground. But you don't inhabit a morally superior ground--you are merely serving your own ideological blindness.
You can attack me with your catharsis all you want but that doesn't solve the problem. Just being angry doesn't solve anything It is not an issue of will but the reality that whatever the number of undocumented living in the US are never going to be deported [other than periodic raids & criminal arrests - that are just a mere fraction of those living in the US]. If it did not happen under the most favorable circumstances of having a Republican president in office than you can be doubly sure it is not going to happen with a Democratic president. Do you think Pelosi & Reed are going to even consider deported all the illegals? You are not being practical or realistic.

I agree with you more than you know but I also know that these lame ideas of rounding up millions of people to send them back to Mexico is never going to happen. Period. Now get beyond your emotion & think about how we can control the border so that more immigrants can not gain entry. That has to be the first task.
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Old 04-17-2009, 12:34 AM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,251,465 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by happ View Post
You can attack me with your catharsis all you want but that doesn't solve the problem. Just being angry doesn't solve anything It is not an issue of will but the reality that whatever the number of undocumented living in the US are never going to be deported [other than periodic raids & criminal arrests - that are just a mere fraction of those living in the US]. If it did not happen under the most favorable circumstances of having a Republican president in office than you can be doubly sure it is not going to happen with a Democratic president. Do you think Pelosi & Reed are going to even consider deported all the illegals? You are not being practical or realistic.

I agree with you more than you know but I also know that these lame ideas of rounding up millions of people to send them back to Mexico is never going to happen. Period. Now get beyond your emotion & think about how we can control the border so that more immigrants can not gain entry. That has to be the first task.
Why do you willfully continue to ignore that I have not argued in favor of deportation? I very CLEARLY stated that deportation would not be needed if employers were held responsible for hiring illegal immigrants. That if there were no jobs, illegal immigrants would go home on their own.

It's very weird that you willfully blind yourself to the words in black and white before your eyes. You don't answer any of the points I've ACTUALLY made. Instead, not only do you not respond to those points, but you imagine and respond to a point I never made. Frankly, I've never seen such bizarre and willful blindness to the facts.
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