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Old 04-30-2009, 11:02 AM
 
8,185 posts, read 12,618,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
I am pro-life yet fully agree with the part of your post I bolded.

As to the DP, I am against it. It's wrong to kill no matter what. I was/am also against Iraq...though I do support wars if they are absolutely necessary - including Afghanistan.
You know, I am prolife also. I am also against the death penalty for plan b, against the war in Iraq, and I am atheist.

I hate it when people make grand assumptions based on what belief, or one facet of ones life. It makes no sense and only serves to alienate people even more.
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:17 AM
 
207 posts, read 242,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US-Traveller View Post
I have a simple question: Why is the pro-abortion agenda such an integral part of the gay agenda?

I have been confused for quite sometime as to why so many in the gay community take a stance in favor of less abortion restrictions and support and align themselves with so many pro-abortion groups.

Examples:
+ The Log Cabin Republican organization takes no formal position on abortion.
+ Most gay groups are closely aligned with EMILY's List, NARAL, and other pro-abortion groups.

I would think that the gay community would try to gain favor with mainstream and religious americans by opposing abortion and favoring more restrictions on abortion. Many in the gay community preach about personal liberty, yet it seems that most of them have no respect for the liberty of the unborn child. I believe that the position that these gay groups have taken further hurts them with mainstream Americans, as most polls show that well over half of Americans favor more restrictions on abortions, over a quarter of Americans believe abortion should not be permitted, and virtually all Americans oppose their tax dollars funding abortions. I think by opposing abortion, or at least offering more diversity in opinion within their community, they could potentially gain enough favor for civil unions or even perhaps marriage.

My personal background: I am opposed to abortion except when it is a threat to the life of the mother. I am opposed to same-sex marriage, but favor reciprocal benefits or civil unions and do not support a federal constitutional ban on same-sex marriage.

Well I am a lesbian, who is pro life (in all aspects not just concerning abortion). Although I'll often argue against pro lifers in abortion arguments simply because the arguments they use are so lame. I also don't protest at planned parenthood or align myself with any religious group, and have no desire to.
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Old 05-01-2009, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Winnetka, IL & Rolling Hills, CA
1,273 posts, read 4,411,227 times
Reputation: 605
It is interesting to see the responses. It still is unclear to me how you can associate civil liberties to preserving the right to an abortion on demand. Even most libertarians including Dr. Ron Paul say that being pro-life is protecting the liberties of the unborn. A poll of physicians by the AMA a few years back showed that 78% of them were opposed to the rulling in Roe v. Wade. Another element of the poll showed that 92% of Ob/Gyn were opposed to the rulling in Roe v. Wade. If you look at the science you know that a fetus is indeed a human being, a unique one. Kathy Ireland has an excellent explanation of how she became pro-life by the way of both the Bible and mostly from science.

I pride myself on honesty and I also should point out that physicians and surgeons are more likely to align themselves with the Republican Party than any other profession, according to the AMA. This might contribute to the fact that so many are pro-life, but I personally feel that this is mostly because of their experience with science.
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:11 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,625 posts, read 26,307,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleLove08 View Post
If she is so anti-choice, why not work at a Catholic hospital or open up a hospital where only Christians can be admitted?
I hardly think a sack of cells at 10 weeks is a human being and that's me.
I'd personally like to see more time spent on preventing unwanted pregnancies than harping on abortion.
So "choice" is just for people who tow your political line? And she isn't anti-choice. She's anti-abortion. If you weren't killing babies you wouldn't have to play word games. Pretty amazing for a sack of cells that, when left unharmed, is born a fully developed baby. Why should the half of America that doesn't support abortion be forced to participate in what they feel is murder? Did you forget the feminist arguments for abortion prior to Roe V. Wade were that pregnancies prevented women from working and therefore made them second class citizens to men who didn't get pregnant? But if her objection to killing children prevents her from being able to pursue her career you say too bad. So worried about your invented rights to abortion and gay marriage, but you couldn't care less about the real Constitutional rights of others. Typical.

Anyways, thank you for showing the entire world gays really do have an agenda to silence all decenting voices.
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:11 AM
 
Location: Mississauga
1,577 posts, read 1,953,409 times
Reputation: 306
As a gay man, I feel uniquely less qualified to respond to this issue than my fellow str8's, particularly with respect to women. However, I resent as a gay man anyone connecting me as an individual to any gay agenda/lifestyle or any other "agenda"

To the question of abortion, I hate the whole Pro-choice/Pro-life delineation as I have immense respect for both sides. This is very tough because for a woman, i know prior to the birth of a baby- that child from the moment of inception is a unique part of her. The choice to abort it is not one that I think any woman would take lightly. However, who is to say when a living thing becomes a living thing. Is it right after the moment of inception when she doesn't know, a week, two weeks, two months? I mean, obviously after the baby is born it is a citizen - but is it a citizen as a zygote or an embro or early gestation fetus? Of all the question of ethics out there, this one for me is the hardest to come to grips with and take a side because I can't decide when a living thing is entitled to rights as a human being. If we say Zygote, well what about a sperm or an ovum, are each of those entitled to rights as a human being because just like a zygote or an embryo or even a fetus, they have the potential to be human beings.

Last edited by mississauga75; 05-01-2009 at 02:28 AM..
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:33 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,625 posts, read 26,307,471 times
Reputation: 12635
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Whats with the religious rights agenda? After all, it is kinda hard to take people seriously when they espouse the sanctity of life and yet agree with the death penalty. It is hard not to see a certain sanctimonious hypocrisy when people look to the lord as they look down their noses at gays.

Of course, not all religious do these things or believe in those things just as not all gay people are prochoice. But it is a lot easier to hate when you make all encompassing generalizations, isn't it?
That's easy! Criminals who commit heinous crimes and are given due process forefit their right to life. Those children who have not yet passed through the birth canal haven't committed any such crimes and haven't forfeited their right to life. Pretty simple concept isn't it?
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:37 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,625 posts, read 26,307,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleLove08 View Post
Bingo!
Or Christians who advocate torture.
Christians who drive SUVS....you do more harm to a fetus that way by contributing to poor air quality and putting toxins in the air...

The list could go on and on.


"Christians who drive SUVS....you do more harm to a fetus that way by contributing to poor air quality and putting toxins in the air..."

Really? Love to see the study. Got a link?
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:46 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,625 posts, read 26,307,471 times
Reputation: 12635
Quote:
Originally Posted by mississauga75 View Post
As a gay man, I feel uniquely less qualified to respond to this issue than my fellow str8's, particularly with respect to women. However, I resent as a gay man anyone connecting me as an individual to any gay agenda/lifestyle or any other "agenda"

To the question of abortion, I hate the whole Pro-choice/Pro-life delineation as I have immense respect for both sides. This is very tough because for a woman, i know prior to the birth of a baby- that child from the moment of inception is a unique part of her. The choice to abort it is not one that I think any woman would take lightly. However, who is to say when a living thing becomes a living thing. Is it right after the moment of inception when she doesn't know, a week, two weeks, two months? I mean, obviously after the baby is born it is a citizen - but is it a citizen as a zygote or an embro or early gestation fetus? Of all the question of ethics out there, this one for me is the hardest to come to grips with and take a side because I can't decide when a living thing is entitled to rights as a human being. If we say Zygote, well what about a sperm or an ovum, are each of those entitled to rights as a human being because just like a zygote or an embryo or even a fetus, they have the potential to be human beings.


"However, who is to say when a living thing becomes a living thing."


When it develops its own unique DNA. Everything else is a T-4 argument.
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:49 AM
 
Location: Mississauga
1,577 posts, read 1,953,409 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
"However, who is to say when a living thing becomes a living thing."


When it develops its own unique DNA. Everything else is a T-4 argument.
Sperm has unique DNA - is that a child. Seriously, everytime a male masturbates - he would be commiting mass murder.

Last edited by mississauga75; 05-01-2009 at 03:11 AM..
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:18 AM
 
26,680 posts, read 28,624,812 times
Reputation: 7943
Quote:
Originally Posted by US-Traveller View Post
I have a simple question: Why is the pro-abortion agenda such an integral part of the gay agenda?.
Interesting. I've been gay all of my life and I've never felt a need to be "pro-abortion". I've also never sensed that it's an integral part of any "gay agenda" - a term, by the way, which has traditionally been used by those who are anti-gay.

Also, the suggestion that gays should be against legal abortion in order to gain favor with the religious right seems pretty twisted and convoluted. You're saying that gay people should change their beliefs in order to become more palatable with a group (the religious right) that has often condemned them.

It's an odd argument you're making, in my opinion.

I do believe that abortion should remain legal. I don't like it, but it's better than criminalizing women who have abortions and the doctors who perform them. And think about all of those unwanted children. I think it would be unfair to bring them into a world where their own mothers and fathers don't want them. It's pretty crummy, I think, to suggest that women should be forced to have children they don't want. I also think it's short-sighted and mean-spirited. Adults make mistakes. It's an imperfect world.
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