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Gee you're starting to sound like Clinton (denying that he had sex with "that woman" because he quibbled that "oral sex" is not "sex").
LOL
"Waterboarding
A criminal investigation interrogation technique whereby a person suspected of having or withholding relevant information is blindfolded and bound on their back, sometimes with the face covered with porous or nonporous material, and subjected to water poured over their mouth and nose such as to simulate drowning and to thus, under duress, elicit information."
The only thing worse than having Muslim extremists hijack Islam is this: Having extremists like you hijack my country.
We follow the rule of law in America. We don't wet our pants at the thought of terrorism. We don't need or want your cowardly reaction. Go someplace else if you want to live under a totalitarian government that has the right to torture people just because it thinks those people need to be tortured.
Your kind is not welcome here.
Slow down Idahogie. They follow the rule of law in Iran when they execute Muslims for converting to Christianity. You don't have to wet your pants to think ahead and adjust to your new situation. Our enemies are happy to use our moral convictions against us. They view it as a weakness. The VC did the same thing in Viet Nam. They knew we didn't have the stomach for the realities of war. The difference is this war has come to the United States and we can't simply quit this one.
You believe that it's better to not torture a single man even though he has information that would save the lives of thousands. Add to that the fact that libs are defining torture as antyhing from maiming (actual torture) to stress positions (something I was subjected to in basic training on a regular basis).
You can take your safe-in-the-comfort-of-your-home righteousness and shove it. There are professionals out there doing a hob that needs to be done so you can be safe in the comfort of your home.
And you cannot prove that torturing saved a single life, that other forms of interrogation might also have saved. Torturing is less effective in the short term, because the person being tortured knows that time is on his side. Torture drives a person to become more extreme in his hatred and commitment to hurting his targets. And torture is pointless in the long-term, because it is more valuable and worthwhile to develop other information sources.
And those professionals out there doing a job aren't making any of us safer. They are giving terrorists even more reason to hate Americans, and more justification for their attempts to harm us.
And those professionals out there doing a job aren't making any of us safer. They are giving terrorists even more reason to hate Americans, and more justification for their attempts to harm us.
They already hate us. They already are committed to wiping the earth free of infidels. They do not need any further justification.
They already hate us. They already are committed to wiping the earth free of infidels. They do not need any further justification.
Actually, they do.
Because the numbers of extremists isn't infinite. And whether it's old age, or being a suicide bomber, or getting shot by the enemy on the battlefield, extremists die. If they don't recruit new members, then they eventually die out. So justification is all-important to extremist organizations.
So your argument boils down to if you want to be victorious over bad guys, you have to become a bad guy?
I totally reject that argument.
Thus, if you were to be in command of our forces, we will lose, badly. The premise I am working from is thousands of years old and has been outlined and implemented by the greatest military minds the world has ever seen. You twist my words out of context as well. There is nothing in my statement that can be construed as meaning that we govern ourselves as 'bad guys'. What is stated is that if we are to prevail against our enemies we have to THINK like they do in implementing our strategy and tactics. That is a job for our military, not politicians and humanitarian types. We saw how well the latter does in military matters during Viet Nam.. We didn't learn a thing either. It's happening again. I totally reject the notion that we can hope to win wars under the constraints that many seem to wish put upon our military and intelligence gathering people. While the brutal reality of war may offend your sensibilities, it is still reality..
Thus, if you were to be in command of our forces, we will lose, badly. The premise I am working from is thousands of years old and has been outlined and implemented by the greatest military minds the world has ever seen. You twist my words out of context as well. There is nothing in my statement that can be construed as meaning that we govern ourselves as 'bad guys'. What is stated is that if we are to prevail against our enemies we have to THINK like they do in implementing our strategy and tactics. That is a job for our military, not politicians and humanitarian types. We saw how well the latter does in military matters during Viet Nam.. We didn't learn a thing either. It's happening again. I totally reject the notion that we can hope to win wars under the constraints that many seem to wish put upon our military and intelligence gathering people. While the brutal reality of war may offend your sensibilities, it is still reality..
You're not only saying that we have to THINK like they do, but that we have to ACT as they do, no matter how amoral those actions may be.
You're not only saying that we have to THINK like they do, but that we have to ACT as they do, no matter how amoral those actions may be.
Truly , in many instances, we do need to act as they do. Morality has nothing to do with it. While we do not see eye to eye on this, I do see your position, but my view remains unwavering.
War is a brutal business. If we are going to prevail against our enemy we must smash them to a pulp. That is the reality of war. If you read Nyguen Giaps book, Peoples War, Peoples Army, you will understand much better what I am trying to say. The very view you are advocating is the premise he used to defeat us in Viet Nam. The book outlines this step by step, blow by blow. Very enlightening reading. The very same thing is happening again.. Our enemy knows they have already won, it's just a matter of time. Unlike us, they are willing to do what it takes to win. They understand that many (very vocal) people in this country have no stomach for the brutallity of war. Especially a war like the one we are in, where the enemy is a wisp of smoke that cannot be directly engaged on a conventional battlefield in a straight up fight. Sound familiar? They are willing, able and ready to utilize vicious tactics knowing that the very notion of having to use those same tactics ourselves, in order to win, will cause a howl of outrage. This has been proven over and over again, and they aren't stupid. They will use this to their complete advantage and to our ultimate demise. They will avoid our strength and attack our weakness. They don't have to commit massive forces to do so either, they can get the job done in college classrooms all across our very own soil. Our own worse enemy is ourselves. Hang on to those 'moral standards'. They may be all you have left when it's all over, for all they will be worth.
Last edited by NVplumber; 05-11-2009 at 12:06 PM..
Truly , in many instances, we do need to act as they do. Morality has nothing to do with it. While we do not see eye to eye on this, I do see your position, but my view remains unwavering.
War is a brutal business. If we are going to prevail against our enemy we must smash them to a pulp. That is the reality of war. If you read Nyguen Giaps book, Peoples War, Peoples Army, you will understand much better what I am trying to say. The very view you are advocating is the premise he used to defeat us in Viet Nam. The book outlines this step by step, blow by blow. Very enlightening reading. The very same thing is happening again.. Our enemy knows they have already won, it's just a matter of time. Unlike us, they are willing to do what it takes to win. They understand that many (very vocal) people in this country have no stomach for the brutallity of war. Especially a war like the one we are in, where the enemy is a wisp of smoke that cannot be directly engaged on a conventional battlefield in a straight up fight. Sound familiar? They are willing, able and ready to utilize vicious tactics knowing that the very notion of having to use those same tactics ourselves, in order to win, will cause a howl of outrage. This has been proven over and over again, and they aren't stupid. They will use this to their complete advantage and to our ultimate demise.
If in the process of defeating your enemy you become the enemy, what have you gained?
To you, we are fighting extremists who want to achieve the downfall of America.
To me, we are fighting extremists who want to achieve the downfall of the American philosophy, the American ideal.
When we betray the principles and ideals we espouse, to defeat those extremists, they die knowing that they have won. Victory doesn't have to be on the battlefield. A victory in ideas can be much more significant, much more enduring.
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. We didn't learn a thing either. It's happening again. I totally reject the notion that we can hope to win wars under the constraints that many seem to wish put upon our military and intelligence gathering people. While the brutal reality of war may offend your sensibilities, it is still reality..
. Our enemy knows they have already won, it's just a matter of time. Unlike us, they are willing to do what it takes to win. They understand that many (very vocal) people in this country have no stomach for the brutallity of war. Especially a war like the one we are in, where the enemy is a wisp of smoke that cannot be directly engaged on a conventional battlefield in a straight up fight. Sound familiar? They are willing, able and ready to utilize vicious tactics knowing that the very notion of having to use those same tactics ourselves, in order to win, will cause a howl of outrage. This has been proven over and over again, and they aren't stupid. They will use this to their complete advantage and to our ultimate demise. They will avoid our strength and attack our weakness. They don't have to commit massive forces to do so either, they can get the job done in college classrooms all across our very own soil. Our own worse enemy is ourselves. Hang on to those 'moral standards'. They may be all you have left when it's all over, for all they will be worth.
