The failure of the American dream? (Congress, generation, illegal, highway)

[Muggy]

If everyone wants a safe, affordable place, with good schools to raise a family, why don't we have that?

If markets respond to demand, why aren't we building what people want? I guess there are more people that want mcmansions and a long commute than people that don't???

Are we just overcrowded?
Are the majority of municipalities moderately corrupt?
Am I just imagining all of this?

We must be voting for all of this with our cash because we just keep getting more of it. When I was in college "new urbanism" was left-wing fringe... now it seems like everyone is talking about "the way things used to be" and living in appropriately scaled towns.

Author James Howard Kunstler calls suburbia the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of mankind. He may be right. I dunno.

I am interested to hear everyone else's opinion (I only ask that this thread remain an open-minded discussion).

Here's mine: maybe America is an experiment destined to fail. Everyone came here looking for freedom of some kind. Maybe there are no longer enough "resources" to provide this "freedom" for everyone.

Are we the first to reach the "industrialized carrying capacity?"

[Grass Is Greener]

Originally Posted by Muggy

If everyone wants a safe, affordable place, with good schools to raise a family, why don't we have that?

It's a traditional matter of supply and demand.

If an area is safe, affordable with good schools it eventually becomes desirable and at some point becomes unaffordable and/or overcrowded.

[Oldiebutgoodie26]

I agree with Abe Lincoln. People are as happy as they make up their mind to be. I think it comes down to your personal feelings about an area. I read ppl on this board say how awful the Baltimore/DC area is (crime, congestion). I lived their for almost ten years- and LOVED it. Where I live now is supposedly paradise- but I cannot stand it. But, that's just me. One person's paradise is another's heck. Like everything in life, what you get out of it is often what you put into it. I don't know- perhaps ppl watch too much tv. Mayberry was a fictional town- not a real place. We are not living in 1954. Times change, and you need to roll with them. I also think as you get older, what you value changes, and so do your needs. I think that looking back to the "good old days" is counter-productive. We tend to gloss over the past, anyways, forget how awful things were. Personally, I do not want to go back to a time of such racism/sexism. I think the unknown is scary to many ppl, which is why they say, "Oh, remember when?" Yet, they forget the struggle they had at the time. I know many ppl who suffer from selective memories.

Don't be so negative, please! If your local schools are "bad"- get involved and change them. If there is much crime in your neighborhood- organize with your local pd. They'd love the help. If we are all these fat, lazy, unhealthy Americans- let's do something about it. Make healthier choices, demonstrate self-control, and pass that on to our kids. Unlike many, many places in this world, we ARE free to make changes. We DO have social mobility. I have met folks who grew up in the most horrific places on this planet (Africa, Asia, S/C. America) and came here for a new life. They worked their tails off to create a better one. They did it, but it took, like most things, blood, sweat, and tears. It CAN be done. You just need to work really hard at it.

What do they say? Be the change you want to see in the world? If you are unhappy about your life/work/place where you live- make plans to change it.

If you are looking for life to be the way it was in 1971, when you were seven- forget it. You grew up and the world changed. Adjust- it's not impossible!

[Mike from back east]

I could write reams....it's a mixed bag, not all negative, much to worry about. My career was in transport, industry and military, I've a lifetime looking at this stuff, to include time studying regulatory issues.

Leadership fails us at all levels. Lobbies; Detroit auto lobby ("what's good for GM is good for the nation"), Houston (big oil) and Akron (big rubber) have members in EVERY congressional district. They are vocal and they contribute. We get highways. Lots of them. Won't do without my car, but wish I could afford living in downtown Denver, NY or SF and walk everywhere.

For 75 years, all levels of government spent tax money to build roads - while keeping railroads and transit systems to try and compete with only the farebox for income. The RRs pay property tax on their rights-of-way. No such tax on public roads. A total mismatch of public policy at Federal, State and Local levels. Most RRs went bankrupt in the late 1960's as the I-system and jets clobbered their markets. What's left of the RR network is very busy, hauling more than ever, but still NOT earning the cost of capital. Ask an economist where that leads.

A front company called National City Lines (backed by GM, Firestone and Standard Oil) did low-ball bids when big cities contracted out trolley ops. NCL tore out trolley systems, late 1940's era, putting in GM buses running on Firestore Tires and burning Standard Oil. The 3 firms were convicted and fined a pittance for that scam. Damage was done.

Local Pols now have figured out that people don't want more highways in their backyards, and matured to the point where they see we cannot ever pour enough concrete to solve commuting problems. Now they are putting the rails back in, but at horrendous cost.

There is a major disconnect between old ways and new. Most big cities were built during a day of living close-in and taking a trolley or bus to work. This led to dense urban cores. Once people moved to the burbs, no one decentralized the cities. For 50 years now, people try to live further out and commute ever further to work in city cores, a huge traffic imbalance in traditional hub-spoke pattern. Look at the classic beltway around each major old city, with spokes leading into city core (hub). Supply and demand dictate prices, so close-in prices are sky high (Manhattan, San Francisco, Denver, DC, etc) and so it goes everywhere. All that office space in central cities need to be distributed way out of town, but that isn't going to happen, we're stuck with it until we can convert a lot of that stuff to condo's and ease traffic flows. Even the DC subway is crammed most days.

There is a "critical mass" that can develop in cities, making them very nice. If you can afford to live in them, you can walk to much of what you need or take a short taxi or subway ride. I hear a third of people in New York City don't have a driver's license. Good. Due to wacky zoning laws, I can't get a Starbucks in my suburban neighborhood, gotta get in my car and drive to it, same for a brewski and burger. Urban areas may have that convenience, but most of us cannot afford the housing costs to live there.

For me, the basic issue is the automobile: (1) Americans believe their cars are wonderful devices for improving mobility and freedom, and; (2) Americans and their politicians believe low taxes and endless tax cuts can somehow co-exist with a stunning array of top-notch public services and infrastructure. Future historians will be glassy-eyed with bewilderment as to how a citizenry, arguably so educated as our own, could worship these twin delusional beliefs to a point it destroyed their environment, quality of life, health and personal wealth.

If people priced out the cost of cars, not just purchase, fuel, maintenance, insurance, tags, taxes, etc but also knew that probably half of police, fire and EMS tax budget is highway related, they'd move towards seeing the true cost. Then there are more taxes for road building & maintenance, traffic signals, street lights, signage, drainage, mowing, striping of lines, snow removal and wow, it really adds up. We are a nation driving to the poorhouse.

Meanwhile, Europe laughs at us as they ride multiple modes of public conveyances in their cities, cheaply and cleanly.

Don't get me started on Jimmy Carter's insane total deregulation of the airlines. World's greatest free enterprise airline system destroyed by amateurish tinkering with something that wasn't broke. We will pay thru the nose for airline pension costs the bankrupt airlines cannot afford. Cheap airfares are too expensive if you look at all the impacts, but it gets votes for buffoons seeking office.

I like Colorado Springs. No dense urban core or hub/spoke. They build offices all over town, you can live near your job here. It's great.

s/Mike - one sorely disappointed American

[pkoons]

Here are some observations using the DC/Baltimore metro area as a guideline:

1) There will be a continued increase in master-planned communities. Columbia, in Howard County, built in the 1970s, is still one of the greatest places to live and work in the DC/Baltimore area. There are numerous highways leading into the city so traffic in the area is rarely bad. You have Rtes. 95, 295, 100, 32, 29, 70, 1 etc. There are condos, townhomes, and single family homes all within short distance of each other, and while I am a jaded suburbanite that likes single family homes on big lots away from apartment buildings, Columbia has done very well maintaining a range of incomes with realtively low crime or community tension. There is shopping, dining, etc. all within each planned "village" which has it's own architectural style and layout. Columbia is loaded with office parks and upscale shopping but also quiet residential neighborhoods. Other examples include the city of Crofton and in Montgomery County the mega-communities including the Kentlands and King Farm. I've lived in some of these places and enjoyed them, and King Farm is even within walking distance of the DC subway. Most have their own shuttles or bus systems. They are convenient, attractive, generally safe - like it or not, this "Smart Growth" will continue for some time.

2) There has been a change in exactly what the American Dream means. Post-WWII, the picture of the ideal family usually meant a white middle-class couple in a cute new home with a white picket fence and a new puppy dog. A shiny new Ford sat on the street outside and a great family evening was a BBQ and a trip to see the new Orioles baseball team play at Memorial Stadium in Baltimore. Now think LONG and HARD about every family you know these days and if anyone you know even comes CLOSE to that. The picturesque late 40's/early 50's built homes intended for GIs and young families in Twinbrook (Rockville) and Glenmont Village (Silver Spring) are pieces of junk - I've heard of toilets rotting through floors and walls collapsing - and now command $375K and up. People keep dogs in condos - this is not a judgment call, but do you really think they're as happy as they would be in an actual YARD? Fewer people are having kids and the divorce rate is over 50%. Nobody drives American cars and GM is claiming bankruptcy. Oh yeah, and the Orioles stink - the most beautiful stadium in baseball draws about 25% of capacity. Now? The American Dream may mean a nice condo in an up-and coming area, a fuel-efficient foreign car, and some extra money to go get sushi and go salsa dancing. Or maybe you prefer a restored farmhouse in the exurbs where you can work from home and telecommute, and spend weekends at your second home in the W.Va mountains. These days, the American Dream is about choices, and for better or for worse, the old notion of a mom, dad, 2 kids, and a dog is pretty much gone.

3) Transportation issues continue to be tops on everyone's list, and there's an easy solution. Look at NoVa in the Fairfax County area if you have any questions. Used to take my uncle 45 minutes to travel 6 miles from his place in Fairfax to go shopping in Tyson's Corner on the WEEKENDS! They've tossed around so many ideas for relieving transportation problems without thinking of the easiest...don't put in new homes without putting in new jobs! Take the large MD suburbs that are within 15-30 miles of DC with lots of existing highway access - if lower rent isn't causing people to set up offices and companies in Annapolis, Frederick, Rockville, Laurel, Waldorf, etc., then give companies tax breaks to do it! Create moratoriums on the residential development that is allowed to keep these nice areas from becoming like inner cities (i.e. no Section 8 or apartments with rent under a certain amount) to keep long term residents justifiably happy. We'll spend less on roads and more creating jobs in these areas, basically creating more cities with the safety of a suburb! Look at Arlington for example - well, how about something LIKE Arlington farther away from the city to relieve congestion? A lot of people lament the creation of sprawling suburbs when the residents commute to DC anyway - well, put more jobs where the people live. Allow telecommuting. Don't expect everyone to want to live in DC just because they work there...I know I don't want to live there. Laurel is a great example - few companies set up shop there, but the location can't be beat. There's a REASON why the biggest used car dealership on the east coast is in Laurel...location!!!!! DC/Baltimore proximity...Fredericksburg VA is a great one too, DC/Richmond proximity.

Anyway, here's 3 ideas to chew on. More to follow another day

[Mike from back east]

Great thoughts. Fully agree. Let me elaborate, keyed to your paragraphs.

1) Regarding master-planned communities...Columbia, MD works so well as it has no dense urban core like most cities. The many roads you mention form a well-spaced grid (think Tic-Tac-Toe design) and not a hub & spoke network as in so many older cites (think wagon wheel - with everyone trying to get to the center each A.M.). Since Columbia has shopping & dining in each planned "village" (each square of the tac-tac-toe grid), it reduces the need to drive. Ideally you can walk, bicycle or take a golf cart (like in the Del Webb Sun City places).

2) Agree. The American Dream changed after WWII and speeded up post-Vietnam. Birth Control and Roe v Wade altered the landscape greatly. For huge number of us, the concept of a "family" is for later marriage, if at all, and maybe two kids max, if any. Enjoying life is now more important than simply getting by in a nice house on a lane with a picket fence. In the old dynamic, men (especially) felt compelled by social expectations to do at least as well as their old man, to "prove themselves," so we dutifully entered the "acquisition phase" of the male life cycle, getting that "good" career, a nice wife, a new car, a house, kids, dog, maybe even a boat or vacation home. Somewhere around 40 it hits many of us "why am I doing this?" We have our mid-life crises and decide this is no longer what we want. Been there done that, but kept the wife. In my parents generation (born 1905 & 1916 respectively) they were all about surviving the Great Depression and winning WW-II. They were obsessed with security. A stable job, warm home and loving family was the definition of security. We boomers started down that road and along the way it changed. We got over the fear of not having enough, of not getting by. There was a safety net now. (By contrast, look at the illegal immigrants, no safety net, working 2-3 jobs, scraping for security.) Seems as a people we figured our way out of the horrific boom and bust cycles, dust bowls, lack of electricity and water, poverty and all the rest that went along with the nation we were in the 1930's. Now, we are much more secure in ourselves and our ability to resolve issues and get on with living. Some still go for that classic family lifestyle, many do not. Many go to church each week, but very few let their lives be controlled by their church (e.g., 85% of Catholics disregard their doctrine against the pill or passive birth control). No going back. For a while we lived in a post WW-2 tract home, 20x40 feet, 800 gross sq ft, on a slab, in Lansdowne, MD. Totally basic, no longer meets anyone's need, save for widows, like Mom was. My garage is almost that big. My home is 3800 sq ft.

3) Transport issues are huge with increasing numbers of people as our leaders are cowards to risk voter wrath over funding and building anything. There is growing support for mass transit, the way to go, always was, but we were sold a bill of goods by Detroit. Sounds like you've read my postings on the horrors of Northern Virginia (NOVA) and we are so glad we left. For more on that mess, people should see my post in VA Forum on "Games Played in Northern Virginia." Regarding my hometown of Baltimore, and many more like it, we will eventually crush miles of old sub-standard decaying row homes and build anew with density, rail lines and the ability to walk to the corner for a brewski. There are some areas of town like that, i.e., villages within the city. But typical American greed simply pushed for massive blocks of row homes and most shopping and dining was an afterthought. In the old days when moms stayed at home, they'd take a streetcar downtown to shop and return with the evening's dinner, etc. Eventually, a few corner homes were converted to mom & pop stores, taverns and pharmacies, but it was hit or miss. Our zoning laws tend to make things worse, not better - cannot mix commerical with residential in the minds of planners, so we live in huge sub-divisions and are forced to drive to get to anything, even starbucks. I've been to Germany and seen how nice it can be to walk to just everything you need, so very civilized, yet we Americans think we are the smart ones. Dream on America.

Thanks for reading along.
s/Mike

[pkoons]

One last thing...

We're also seeing a disintegration of the line between "white" and "blue" collar jobs/neighborhoods etc. Areas that a lot of refined, WASPy types wouldn't set foot in or carried negative connotations with the upscale crowd (DC/Balt. examples: Canton/Hampden in Baltimore, Pasadena, Elkridge, etc) are attracting a lot of professionals and seeing $750K+ housing developments.

Also, a college grad with a business or engineering degree may go into their first job making $40-50K. Good money, but still tough to make a living in this area. A HVAC professional, steamfitter, or master mason could easily make the same amount or more without a degree. Go to any Howard County neighborhood and you'll see this - doctors living side by side with plumbing company owners etc. It's a great dichotomy.

What about jobs like bartending at a fine-dining establishment, real estate, boutique retail sales, etc? These jobs don't require degrees but offer earning potential of $75K+. I've heard the term "gray-collar" passed around... Here's an example - of my closest friends under 30, there's a chemical engineer, a DC police officer, a Budweiser distribution rep, a used-car pricing analyst, an IT professional, and a chain restaurant bartender. Guess which ones have the college degrees? Bet nobody can get it 100% right - and that's pretty cool. Lots of unique opportunities these days for sure!

[GypsySoul22]

I think the whole 'go to college' and make your life better is a scam. I'm 40 years old and have 2 degrees (one in English, one in Elementary teaching). I'm married to an immigrant (now a USA citizen) from England who is in a blue collar job. We've worked hard trying to make a good life for ourselves and our one child.

Still, we feel like failures. We don't own our own home, we seem to be out of step with the American dream (own a house, 2 cars, 2.5 kids, nice neighbors, plenty of friends).

We are good people looking for a simple life--own a small home, be happy, watch our son grow up, be good citizens, help others..

The American dream seems so far out of reach for us. We arent' trying to keep up with the Jones, just 'survive.'

My parents think we are 'just lazy.'

Any thoughts?

[pkoons]

Everyone is driven by a different motivator and sees success differently - though when you say you feel like failures that's not a good indication of your success level... I'm sorry to hear that.

Why are you in Long Island? (Not a criticism, just a question) Sometimes surrounding yourself with wealthy people (in Long Island/Westchester Co./Connecticut gold coast/NJ burbs, SICKENINGLY wealthy people) is motivational and sometimes it's just depressing. Sounds like you are falling into the latter category - have you considered a move to an area where homes are more affordable? The NC Research triangle, pockets of Florida, Ohio major cities, etc are all safe, affordable, and have plenty of jobs. Heck even DC/Baltimore where I live is cheaper than L.I.!!!

The American dream you described (2 cars, house in the burbs, good job) describes my life pretty well. I am blessed, fortunate, and couldn't be happier 99% of the time. But there are some negatives - I drive over an hour each way to work. I work a second job nearly every Saturday. My home is 75 years old and my mortgage is very high. I work so much I don't get to spend much time getting to know my neighbors - local kids probably have urban legends about my house I'm single and am not home enough to have a pet for companionship, or proper accomodations to have a roommate.

It's all about tradeoffs, which I'm sure you don't need to be reminded of. You're well educated, seem genuinely interested in the well-being of others, have a family, etc. If you have time to see your son on nights & weekends and make a good home for him, hold down a job you enjoy, and get along with your husband, you're not just keeping up with the Jones's, you're ahead of them. I'd trade my new car for a 15 minute commute in a '93 Hyundai any day of the week. No offense to any Hyundai drivers, the new ones are pretty snazzy I must admit. As materialistic as I admittedly am, none of it is REALLY important... Just my $0.02. Put it this way - if you have a computer to type this message on, you're already ahead of 50% of the world

There's a lot wrong with America, but there's a lot wrong everywhere else too - focus on the good stuff. As much money as there is floating around the DC/Baltimore region, I'd much rather kick back with the locals in Dundalk and shoot pool than go down to Bethesda with the movers & shakers and show off... here's to viewing success in a different way.

[B'Goshboy]

Originally Posted by GypsySoul22

I think the whole 'go to college' and make your life better is a scam. I'm 40 years old and have 2 degrees (one in English, one in Elementary teaching). I'm married to an immigrant (now a USA citizen) from England who is in a blue collar job. We've worked hard trying to make a good life for ourselves and our one child.

Still, we feel like failures. We don't own our own home, we seem to be out of step with the American dream (own a house, 2 cars, 2.5 kids, nice neighbors, plenty of friends).

We are good people looking for a simple life--own a small home, be happy, watch our son grow up, be good citizens, help others..

The American dream seems so far out of reach for us. We arent' trying to keep up with the Jones, just 'survive.'

My parents think we are 'just lazy.'

Any thoughts?

You are partially correct on the college scam. Part of the problem is that there are an awful lot of grads with rather useless degrees. Pardon me, but you being one of them. I'm referring to the English degree. As I see it, the middle class is being squeezed, and you're in a place where it is happening big time. pkoons and Mike addressed parts of the problem very well.

So, are you teaching? Does your hubby have any blue collar skills? Would you like some advise from a complete stranger who might be a nut case? Here it is: MOVE. Move to a medium sized community in a state that has good schools, and get a job. Johnnybandfreak from France has been doing some searching because they are going to move to the US this year. She says that Neenah Wisconsin is one of her first choices. It can be done. I live in Oshkosh Wis. There are nice homes available in nice neighborhoods, not the brand new suburb, not the 3000 sq ft homes, but decent, for $80,000.

Sorry, you've already been reading her posts, AND you've already tried to get a job here!! IMHO, it is extremely difficult to get a job in a different city, unless you have highly sought after skills. And it is equally hard to "Pick" a new city to live in. But, think of the pioneers, who just packed up and went to somewhere. They had no idea what they would find, but they did it and many suceeded.