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What's the tally? How many have been upheld versus how many have been struck down? How many have been thought of, but have never been put into legislative language because nobody could think of any way to phrase it so that it wouldn't be automatically struck down?
Waiting periods, requirements to view an ultrasound, parental consent being required for minors, and required counseling have all been upheld, in addition to bans on late-term abortions.
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Originally Posted by saganista
Try to be at least somewhat realistic. Right-to-lifers will not be satisifed until Roe is struck down at the federal level and permissive laws in every state are also overturned and replaced with laws that impose severe punishments upon women who choose to pursue abortion anyway and upon any who might assist them. It is the right-to-lifers who are the only extremists on the stage.
Ideally, I wish abortion could be a state issue so we could end the fighting over it on a national level. Women in the red states would be able to travel to the blue states to have abortions anyway.
As far as extremists, the pro-choicers who support third trimester and late second-trimester abortions being legal other than in the case of medical necessity are extremists to me. The pro-lifers who are against abortion being allowed even in the case of rape or medical necessity are the other extremists.
Many posters on here feel abortion should be permitted even in the third trimester regardless of circumstance. Apparently you're a misognyist if you suggest otherwise.
I honestly don't see 'many' posters here who have expressed agreement with that. Yes, I have seen one or two, but even with them I got the feeling they were being facetious. I would say that most of us pro-choicers agree that it should be limited to the first trimester except in case of the pregnancy endangering the mother's life or health.
That belief/feeling/opinion derives from an assumption that there is no qualitative difference between a two-year old toddler and an 8-week old fetus. The cumulative effects of 30+ months of rapid human development speak to contradict such a belief/feeling/opinion.
That belief/feeling/opinion derives from an assumption that there is no qualitative difference between a two-year old toddler and an 8-week old fetus. The cumulative effects of 30+ months of rapid human development speak to contradict such a belief/feeling/opinion.
I should rephrase - "murder" may not be the best term for causing the death of an 8-week old fetus (though I think it's very, very wrong). I do, however, feel that causing the death of a 24-week old fetus is murder without a doubt.
I fully understand that a 2 year old and an 8-week old fetus are quite different.
I didn't answer the poll because I don't consider myself to by pro-abortion or pro-choice. I consider myself to be pro-women.
I'm 100% for educating people on preventing unwanted pregnancies, and for making contraceptives available to people who are going to have sex, though they don't want children. Even though contraceptives are not 100% effective, which is why the majority of women seeking abortions state that their contraceptive method failed.
These women are not irresponsible, immoral, or stupid. The majority of them are also not wealthy. They are mostly in their 20's. They are mostly already mothers.
They don't have the luxury of weighing the considerations of abortion as a philosophical exercise. They aren't guilty of not thinking enough about their choice, but may be guilty of thinking too much. Thinking too much of the child they already have, and how they are barely able to make ends meet right now. Thinking too much that they don't have room in their home. Thinking too much of how expensive daycare is, especially for a newborn. Thinking too much of how her employer already complains about the time she has to take off for one child, if she has to take time off for two, will she be able to keep her job? Thinking too much of how expensive being pregnant is, how much it costs to have a baby in the hospital, how much formula and diapers cost.
Pro-life people dismiss the concerns of women who consider abortion as selfish. But it's not selfish or irresponsible to think about the costs of having children. It's not selfish or irresponsible to think about the children you already have, and how another child could impact them. It's not selfish or irresponsible to consider your own health and well-being, because when you're responsible for taking care of others, you have to take care of yourself.
Only the woman facing the prospect of an unwanted child can know and appreciate her situation fully. She is the one who will bear the consequences, no matter what choice she chooses. It's not a happy choice, not a happy situation. I just respect that it is a deeply personal matter for her. I acknowledge that such deeply personal matters demand privacy, that they involve a host of factors that we all like to regard as private. Matters such as our financial security, and our physical health, and the nature and stability of our personal relationships.
I'm not opposed to some legal restrictions, but I also think it should be made clear that legal restrictions on abortion are inherently discriminatory. Poor and rural women overwhelmingly bear the burdens of legal restrictions. They are the women who are least likely to recover from the financial impact of having an unwanted child, and every legal restriction imposed makes them all the more likely to have a child.
Many pro-lifers focus their argument on why people who don't want to have children have sex at all. We don't all have the same sex drive. So simply tell people who don't want children to live a life of celibacy is not well-thought-out advice. Some people have very strong sex drives. And we live in a world where sexual messages surround us. People are going to engage in sexual relations. They always have, they always will. I think teaching people to behave responsibly is not just about accountability but also about respect. And respect starts with the recognition that people have different beliefs and opinions, and that just because they differ with yours doesn't mean that they are wrong or bad.
So my opinion about abortion rests on the simple proposition that abortions are never a good choice, but that for the woman involved, it might be the best choice she has available. I am not in a position to judge her, because the choice involves deeply personal matters, so personal that forcing her to share her considerations is a violation of her privacy. I hope that she has taken her time to really think about this, to ponder all the what-ifs, to consider the fact that pregnancy changes your life, no matter what the outcome of the pregnancy, and that she is fully responsible for how this pregnancy will change her life.
DC, your arguments are very logical and very reasonable. But if you consider the fetus to already be regarded as "a life that deserves protection," (which is the standpoint from which most pro-life people including myself are coming) then all these logical, reasonable points are out the window, so to speak. "Life" trumps them. This is the essence of why we are all butting heads about this issue. It's not that some of us don't care about women and some do. I'm a woman myself, but also staunchly pro-life. We just have a difference of opinion about when "real life" begins. Because of that difference, it's difficult for there to be any compromise or "meeting of the minds" on this issue.
DC, your arguments are very logical and very reasonable. But if you consider the fetus to already be regarded as "a life that deserves protection," (which is the standpoint from which most pro-life people including myself are coming) then all these logical, reasonable points are out the window, so to speak. "Life" trumps them. This is the essence of why we are all butting heads about this issue. It's not that some of us don't care about women and some do. I'm a woman myself, but also staunchly pro-life. We just have a difference of opinion about when "real life" begins. Because of that difference, it's difficult for there to be any compromise or "meeting of the minds" on this issue.
You're absolutely right.
The crux of the matter rests on when you believe life to begin. At a certain point in development there is a transition from potential to realized. If we are talking about fetal development, I don't think it's hard and fast. Humans develop at different rates. Some children will walk at certain points, some children acquire language at different rates. To me, it is likely that the transition from "potential" to "realized" varies as well. Science hasn't given us a conclusive answer, but legally we rely on the best science we currently have available.
I still think though, that even though we have divergent opinions on when life begins, that we can have a "meeting of the minds" based on mutual respect. We may never agree on the issue of abortion, but we can agree on the benefits of programs to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. The two sides don't have to be antagonists. There is so much we can all do to improve the situations that create a need for the choice of abortion. My mantra continues to be fix the problems, instead of fixing blame.
An admission of arguing from the outliers? Some murders are the result of marital disputes. In the interests of preserving life, we should therefore outlaw marriage.
Well, this follows an accepted argument against the death penalty. If only one innocent person is put to death, then the whole thing ought to be abolished. If only a small percentage of late term abortions were performed for cosmetic reasons (cleft palate, for example) or other such non catastrophic grounds then it would follow that late term abortions ought to be stopped, or at the very least regulated.
Why not address the actual question? Among late-term abortions, what percent would you estimate (and on what basis) are to women carrying a pregnancy that was actually UNWANTED to begin with?
And that is the problem, isn't it? There is no reliable data. I mean, I could find pro life sites that will say an incredibly high number and then I could go to pro choice sites that will claim a very low number. Who to believe? Both have agendas that in their minds would trump the truth.
The fact is while finding out a number of how many late term abortions are performed might be found and might even be accurate, there is no way to ascertain the reasons behind the abortions. Health of the mother can include depression. Health of the fetus can inlcude down syndrome or club foot or even being the wrong sex.
You argue here for the LACK of any reason for intervention. The specifics and gravity of whatever late-term situation are ALREADY DISCUSSED in great and too often painful detail. A woman, as if there actually were any, who would simply walk into a clinic at 28 weeks and say "Well, I'm really tired of this, I want an abortion." won't be getting one.
There is the woman in Florida who got one for no other reason then she didn't realize she was pregnant until mid second trimester and she wanted an abortion. She got one. How often does this happen? Does anyone really know?
There is the woman in Florida who got one for no other reason then she didn't realize she was pregnant until mid second trimester and she wanted an abortion. She got one. How often does this happen? Does anyone really know?
There are statistics available.
But I do challenge your contention that the woman in Florida got an abortion "for no other reason" than she was unaware of her pregnancy. She may have gotten it as late as she did because she was unaware. But woman don't get abortions because the pregnancy is a surprise. They get abortions for lots of reasons. Lots of personal, private reasons. And lots of times, if you or I were privy to those reasons, we wouldn't consider those reasons to be trivial or minute. We'd understand that bringing a life into this world is a momentous responsibility, and some women have to consider if they can live up to that responsibility. We'd understand that bringing a new life into this world can be a tremendous blessing, but that doesn't mean that everything about it is a blessing. There is an impact on lives already here, and the impact isn't always positive.
But I do challenge your contention that the woman in Florida got an abortion "for no other reason" than she was unaware of her pregnancy. She may have gotten it as late as she did because she was unaware. But woman don't get abortions because the pregnancy is a surprise. They get abortions for lots of reasons. Lots of personal, private reasons. And lots of times, if you or I were privy to those reasons, we wouldn't consider those reasons to be trivial or minute. We'd understand that bringing a life into this world is a momentous responsibility, and some women have to consider if they can live up to that responsibility. We'd understand that bringing a new life into this world can be a tremendous blessing, but that doesn't mean that everything about it is a blessing. There is an impact on lives already here, and the impact isn't always positive.
yes, of course there are many reasons for having an abortion including not being able to afford another child or not being able to parent at the time of the unplanned pregnancy.
However, as good as these reasons may be, and as much sense as they may make in a first trimester abortion I don't believe they hold water when it comes to second and third trimester abortions. By that point adoption should be the option pursued. At a certain point - namely viability - it really should become too late to abort for any reason other then saving the actual life of the mother.
Oh, and I don't believe that I was being clear. The woman in FL aborted late in her pregnancy only because she didn't find out she was pregnant till that point. Her reason for aborting was that she didn't want to be a mother at that point in her life. As I said, her reason was valid but not the timing.
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