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"Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try. No hell below us. Above us only sky. Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one. I hope some day you'll join us. And the world will live as one."
Imagine all the people...lol. Great song! And great idea! Did I mention my unwavering love for you...lol
The argument of wjtwet reduced to its essence. Killing is bad. Abortion is killing. Therefore abortion is bad.
Is see an awful lot of verbage to make this point. Enough already. It would be one thing if we could argue / discuss whether some killing is acceptible or whether individual rights are greater than ones allowed by the government. I think it's clear that these things can't really be argued effectively here. You'd have about as much luck convincing Osama Bin Laden that the USA is not the "Great Satan." This is how dogma works. This is how deep seated ideologies perpetuate.
BTW, refer to post #1297 for a perfect example of not getting another one's point and simply stating the same thing over and over. This is not an argument. It is wjtwet's proclamation. He apparently does not know the difference.
A truth we are all so painfully aware of!!! So people refuse to see the truth when it's presented right before their eyes. Some people refuse to see another way than their own. Some people refuse to adapt and evolove....we all know what happens to those people!
Wtjet, have you ever killed a fly, spider, or maybe a mouse? How about any bug, or unwelcomed rodent?
We all know that you have, to say you havent would be a lie. Why did you kill it? becasue it was unwelcome in your home? Or what else?
Well, you have no right to kill that bug, or rodent...by your logic alone. This is wrong, it is killing a living breathing creature. That actually has more developed than most fetus's that are aborted.
Why do people kill rodents and bugs?
Spiders - poisenous...could kill you.
Mice - they cost you money by eating food and destroying cloth...and the spread.
Bees - some people are allergic and the sting could kill them
There are a number of reasons to kill a pest.
The biggest one..is becasue it isnt welcome in your home. If you leave a window open or a door open, or do a number of other things bugs will get in your home. Hey you could have prevented it...so now you are stuck with it. So from now on, if a bug or rodent gets in your home you have to let it stay there. By your actions it got it.
Sounds pretty dumb huh? So Does having a child that noone wants to take care of. But you said you would, so I know I will post a flyer in all the abortion clinics with your photo, number, address, and name...it will say that you will gladly pay for that child to live or take it in yourself. You also have to take care of all medical bills that result in the birth.
Sure you may do this once or twice but once your phone started ringing off the hook you would be taking the flyers down and changing your number. No one wants to provide for someone elses kid just becasue their parents cant afford to take care of themselves.
On another note: becasue you are so against death, you need to stop the war in Iraq as well...yep, a life is a life right...
AHHH grasshopper...my how you have grown into a wise and logical man. I am so proud! It is too bad your logic will be wasted on a few but i for one couldn't agree more!
Wtjet, have you ever killed a fly, spider, or maybe a mouse? How about any bug, or unwelcomed rodent?
We all know that you have, to say you havent would be a lie. Why did you kill it? becasue it was unwelcome in your home? Or what else?
Well, you have no right to kill that bug, or rodent...by your logic alone. This is wrong, it is killing a living breathing creature. That actually has more developed than most fetus's that are aborted.
Why do people kill rodents and bugs?
Spiders - poisenous...could kill you.
Mice - they cost you money by eating food and destroying cloth...and the spread.
Bees - some people are allergic and the sting could kill them
There are a number of reasons to kill a pest.
The biggest one..is becasue it isnt welcome in your home. If you leave a window open or a door open, or do a number of other things bugs will get in your home. Hey you could have prevented it...so now you are stuck with it. So from now on, if a bug or rodent gets in your home you have to let it stay there. By your actions it got it.
Sounds pretty dumb huh? So Does having a child that noone wants to take care of. But you said you would, so I know I will post a flyer in all the abortion clinics with your photo, number, address, and name...it will say that you will gladly pay for that child to live or take it in yourself. You also have to take care of all medical bills that result in the birth.
Sure you may do this once or twice but once your phone started ringing off the hook you would be taking the flyers down and changing your number. No one wants to provide for someone elses kid just becasue their parents cant afford to take care of themselves.
On another note: becasue you are so against death, you need to stop the war in Iraq as well...yep, a life is a life right...
1) a fly spider or mouse is not human life nor will they ever be human life. So the comparison is not valid
2) If the mother does not want the child she can approach an adoption agency and not keep the child. She can legally drop a child at a fire station, she does not have to kill it with the same regard you do a fly.Adoption agencies will gladly pay for the cost of the child birth.
3) you Value money more than human life , i do not , that is your choice.
4) I will gladly discuss the Iraq war , however that should be in a different thread than abortion
1) a fly spider or mouse is not human life nor will they ever be human life. So the comparison is not valid
You really have a superior mindset...American human...if its not that then you arent alive and I dont care what happens to you.
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2) If the mother does not want the child she can approach an adoption agency and not keep the child. She can legally drop a child at a fire station, she does not have to kill it with the same regard you do a fly.Adoption agencies will gladly pay for the cost of the child birth.
Your right, but someone does have to pay for it...guess what...I dont want to have to pay for the mistakes of others, you do. GO right ahead.
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3) you Value money more than human life , i do not , that is your choice.
I define Human life as one with conscious thought, nervous system, being able to practice some freewill. You also put a fetus above any other human being...Sorry If i will worry about those who are already here and breathing on their own. And actually Yes, I will say that money is more important to me when it comes to paying to raise someone elses child, I should not have to pay for some kid to grow up unloved and in the system or who has parents that are too lazy to work.
4) I will gladly discuss the Iraq war , however that should be in a different thread than abortion[/quote]
Why? Okay the death penalty, why dont you strop that? no matter what they did, do they really deserve to die? I only askk becasue I am curious to know what you consider a human life? Obviously you say that a fetus with no nervous system and no conscious thought is more human than the soldiers we have lost, the innocent Iraqies, and other human lives lost thoughout history becasue of war...Which is more than all the abortions combined.
My question is why do you care so much about what others are doing...or are you one of those people that peeps out the window to spy on your neighbor to cast judgment? You dont like abortion...fine dont get one, but you have no right to tell someone else what to do with their life. I just think that you need to open your mind, to the possability that not everyone is like you.
I also would like to know when you think a human becomes a human? what stage in the pregnancy does it start being "human"?
I could easily say that a human is a human even before the sperm and egg meet, after all that is what makes us...so to me (hypothetically) killing sperm or an egg is murder...especially the egg, think about it...The egg is where it all begins, and everytime a woman does not fertalize that egg she is commiting murder...so how many babies have you killed?
You really have a superior mindset...American human...if its not that then you arent alive and I dont care what happens to you.
Your right, but someone does have to pay for it...guess what...I dont want to have to pay for the mistakes of others, you do. GO right ahead.
I define Human life as one with conscious thought, nervous system, being able to practice some freewill. You also put a fetus above any other human being...Sorry If i will worry about those who are already here and breathing on their own. And actually Yes, I will say that money is more important to me when it comes to paying to raise someone elses child, I should not have to pay for some kid to grow up unloved and in the system or who has parents that are too lazy to work.
4) I will gladly discuss the Iraq war , however that should be in a different thread than abortion
Why? Okay the death penalty, why dont you strop that? no matter what they did, do they really deserve to die? I only askk becasue I am curious to know what you consider a human life? Obviously you say that a fetus with no nervous system and no conscious thought is more human than the soldiers we have lost, the innocent Iraqies, and other human lives lost thoughout history becasue of war...Which is more than all the abortions combined.
My question is why do you care so much about what others are doing...or are you one of those people that peeps out the window to spy on your neighbor to cast judgment? You dont like abortion...fine dont get one, but you have no right to tell someone else what to do with their life. I just think that you need to open your mind, to the possability that not everyone is like you.
I also would like to know when you think a human becomes a human? what stage in the pregnancy does it start being "human"?
I could easily say that a human is a human even before the sperm and egg meet, after all that is what makes us...so to me (hypothetically) killing sperm or an egg is murder...especially the egg, think about it...The egg is where it all begins, and everytime a woman does not fertalize that egg she is commiting murder...so how many babies have you killed?[/quote]
1)Human life is more valuable then a fly. If you think a flies life is more valuable or equal in value to a human there are some fine organizations like PETA which you could help. Since Roe versus wade is an American issue I will start there.
2)Adoption agenices are non profit groups . At the tiem an exepctant mother sign up to use an adoption agency all of her bills are paid for through the agency. Non profit groups solicit for capital. I give to a very prominent adoption agency in my area. Adoption agenices depend on gifts.
3) Whose child are you paying for? You have your opinion when someone becomes a human I have mine and here is the bottom line issue of the debate choice versus life. If you believe as I do human life starts at conception then you would see abortion as murder. If you see human life start somewhere in between conception and birth, than you straddle the line as to when you define human life began. If you believe human life starts at birth then your fine with third term abortions. So i am only presuming by your own definition of human life as "I define Human life as one with conscious thought, nervous system, being able to practice some freewill."
That you do not think any fetus is human life, since there is no free will until birth. And you are free to use that opinion to claim a woman has a clear right to choose to kill
If you believe money is more important than human life then why not murder all the poor.?
4) I am very anti death penalty as I have stated in this thread again and again. So let me repeat it as I know the thread is long. I am against the death penalty, I travle to huntsville and peacefully protest it.
You claim a fetus is not human, we disagree .
5) so i do not get accused of not asnwering you i copy yoru question here.
My question is why do you care so much about what others are doing...or are you one of those people that peeps out the window to spy on your neighbor to cast judgment? You dont like abortion...fine dont get one, but you have no right to tell someone else what to do with their life. I just think that you need to open your mind, to the possability that not everyone is like you.
I care because i look at the denying of 49 million lives as murder. I see it as murder and i believe murder is wrong. I cast judgment in the same manner a pro choicer does. I pro choicer casts the judgment that because pro life believes in life we hate woman. So as I am judged someone hating woman, i judge killing the unborn to be very bad.
And i think you need to open your mind to others who honestly believe that fetus is life. If you open your mind and get to the point you believe the unborn fetus is a human then you will see things differently.
Now my question to you is. Since you beleive that ther emust be free will to be alive, do you agree with third term abortions?
1)Human life is more valuable then a fly. If you think a flies life is more valuable or equal in value to a human there are some fine organizations like PETA which you could help. Since Roe versus wade is an American issue I will start there.
Sorry If I think the world exists outside of America. The best way you could overturn Roe vs. Wade would be to get another country to make it illegal, if it was illegal in all other major countries...i bet it would be here as well.
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2)Adoption agenices are non profit groups . At the tiem an exepctant mother sign up to use an adoption agency all of her bills are paid for through the agency. Non profit groups solicit for capital. I give to a very prominent adoption agency in my area. Adoption agenices depend on gifts.
Odd, last time I checked my Friend got a bill for her abortion after being raped...
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3) Whose child are you paying for?
When a child is born and the parents are on welfare, my taxes go to support not only that child but the losers who are too lazy to get childcare and both work two jobs.
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If you believe money is more important than human life then why not murder all the poor.?
Sorry we're talking about abortion, if you wish to start a new thread to discuss the poor...
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4) I am very anti death penalty as I have stated in this thread again and again. So let me repeat it as I know the thread is long. I am against the death penalty, I travle to huntsville and peacefully protest it.
You claim a fetus is not human, we disagree .
So you do value human life..good to know.
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I pro choicer casts the judgment that because pro life believes in life we hate woman. So as I am judged someone hating woman, i judge killing the unborn to be very bad.
Wow, I daont know anyone that is pro-choice that says pro-lifers are woman haters...most are women.
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And i think you need to open your mind to others who honestly believe that fetus is life. If you open your mind and get to the point you believe the unborn fetus is a human then you will see things differently.
ahh, but you do not see that at one point I was on the opposite end of this very thread. Going off on the same old, regurgateted things you say. I have infact opened my mind and see that there is always more than one view, more than two as well. I realized that there are valid reasons for abortions, as well as invalid.
Now my question to you is. Since you beleive that ther emust be free will to be alive, do you agree with third term abortions?
No, of course I dont think that is right, I also think it is a load of bull that religious organizations can run places like abortion clinics and judge a woman for consideing it. My friend who was raped, went in to get an abortion...she was three weeks pregnant and they made her feel like crap, like she was the one who was in the wrong. I am glad I went with her, the a**hole nurse and doctor, told her that it was wrong to get in done and that "GOD" had plans for her and her child...I got up and wanted to puch them in the face...the doctor was a man and I was soooo tempted...I asked him to go out in the hall and speak with me...I drilled him in the fact that she was RAPED, and that if he continued to degrade my friend that I would shove his stethescope where the sun dont shine. He agreed and treded lightly from this point on. Also, he said that she had to wait till she was like 6 weeks pregnant to get it done...WTF...why let it develop at all?
When she finally went back in...I went with again...and when they where done with the prcedure, they left the fetus on the counter...WTF? Im sorry, but this is messed up...
Do you think that there is ever a valid reason for abortion or do you just think that a woman who was raped should be forced to go through a pregnancy that she was forced into?
No, of course I dont think that is right, I also think it is a load of bull that religious organizations can run places like abortion clinics and judge a woman for consideing it. My friend who was raped, went in to get an abortion...she was three weeks pregnant and they made her feel like crap, like she was the one who was in the wrong. I am glad I went with her, the a**hole nurse and doctor, told her that it was wrong to get in done and that "GOD" had plans for her and her child...I got up and wanted to puch them in the face...the doctor was a man and I was soooo tempted...I asked him to go out in the hall and speak with me...I drilled him in the fact that she was RAPED, and that if he continued to degrade my friend that I would shove his stethescope where the sun dont shine. He agreed and treded lightly from this point on. Also, he said that she had to wait till she was like 6 weeks pregnant to get it done...WTF...why let it develop at all?
When she finally went back in...I went with again...and when they where done with the prcedure, they left the fetus on the counter...WTF? Im sorry, but this is messed up...
Do you think that there is ever a valid reason for abortion or do you just think that a woman who was raped should be forced to go through a pregnancy that she was forced into?
The only valid reason for abortion is for self defense of the mothers life.
So you think third term abortions are bad.
Why do you think is a third term abortion bad?
You said clearly that life means free will. How is a third term fetus have any free will?
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Originally Posted by wjtwet 1)Human life is more valuable then a fly. If you think a flies life is more valuable or equal in value to a human there are some fine organizations like PETA which you could help. Since Roe versus wade is an American issue I will start there.
Sorry If I think the world exists outside of America. The best way you could overturn Roe vs. Wade would be to get another country to make it illegal, if it was illegal in all other major countries...i bet it would be here as well.
Misquote I said i can have a say what goes on in America but not such say in Angola where I am not a citizen. You think Americans should tell what other countries do?
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2)Adoption agenices are non profit groups . At the tiem an exepctant mother sign up to use an adoption agency all of her bills are paid for through the agency. Non profit groups solicit for capital. I give to a very prominent adoption agency in my area. Adoption agenices depend on gifts.
Odd, last time I checked my Friend got a bill for her abortion after being raped...
Correct there is a bill for abortion. Adoption agencies do not bill you if you give up the baby to them If you have the baby and decide to keep it you will then be billed
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3) Whose child are you paying for?
When a child is born and the parents are on welfare, my taxes go to support not only that child but the losers who are too lazy to get childcare and both work two jobs.
So you support killing the child because of its parents. Well your choice
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If you believe money is more important than human life then why not murder all the poor.?
Sorry we're talking about abortion, if you wish to start a new thread to discuss the poor...
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4) I am very anti death penalty as I have stated in this thread again and again. So let me repeat it as I know the thread is long. I am against the death penalty, I travle to huntsville and peacefully protest it.
You claim a fetus is not human, we disagree .
So you do value human life..good to know.
But you do not
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I pro choicer casts the judgment that because pro life believes in life we hate woman. So as I am judged someone hating woman, i judge killing the unborn to be very bad.
Wow, I daont know anyone that is pro-choice that says pro-lifers are woman haters...most are women.
What are you saying by proununcing pro lifers are against womens rights
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And i think you need to open your mind to others who honestly believe that fetus is life. If you open your mind and get to the point you believe the unborn fetus is a human then you will see things differently.
ahh, but you do not see that at one point I was on the opposite end of this very thread. Going off on the same old, regurgateted things you say. I have infact opened my mind and see that there is always more than one view, more than two as well. I realized that there are valid reasons for abortions, as well as invalid.
You want to compromise on life, I will not
Now my question to you is. Since you beleive that ther emust be free will to be alive, do you agree with third term abortions?
Last edited by wjtwet; 06-20-2009 at 01:23 PM..
Reason: typos
The only valid reason for abortion is for self defense of the mothers life.
Wow, so a woman that was raped should have to give birth?
How about the child that is to be born, what if it is sick and will live a short unhappy life?
What do you constitute as self defense?
I could easily argue that by having an abortion becasue you cannot afford it and you will have to give the child up or starve is self defense of the mother and unborn.
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So you think third term abortions are bad.
Why do you think is a third term abortion bad?
You said clearly that life means free will. How is a third term fetus have any free will?
Plus a third term early pregnancy, if the child is a premature birth can infact survive. And guess what...by the time you reach that point the Child has infact begun to utilize brain function.
Let me ask you this...if you beleive in God, and dont like abortion...how can you like god...he is the biggest abortionist of them all..miscarriages?
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You think Americans should tell what other countries do?
Well we try to tell each other what to do all the time...and we do tell other countries what to do as do they with us...its called global communication
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So you support killing the child because of its parents. Well your choice
Would have a problem with someone who took a pill just after sex to stop pregnancy...even before they knew they where pregnant? How about stronger birth control or maybe laws requiring the use of them unless you intend to have a child?
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So you do value human life..good to know.
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But you do not
Wow, since you can read minds...guess what i was going to write here.
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You want to compromise on life, I will not
Life is not just the ability to breath or live...life is much more than that. I do not compromise life.
Simple thing of it is...how is someone you do not know having an abortion doing anything to your life? Why cant you stay out of other peoples business. I may not like abortion, and think that measures should be taken prior to pregnancy, however...I cannot tell someone else what to do with their bodies.
Roe vs. wade will never be overturned. Just as slave labor will not return in America. Some people didnt like that or any of the equal rights movements that we have had. But, they have learned to deal with it, or simply stay out of it.
I think they should pass a law that states anyone who chooses to get involved in someone elses business without consent should be fined or have certain liberties taken away. If someone is doing something that I dont like, but it isnt doing anything to me or anyone else...stay out of it.
And since a fetus is not a legal definition of a human being and cannot speak for itself it is up to the parents to decide what is right. Just as parents do with their children after birth.
Abortion is never an easy thing to do...losing a child is hard no matter what. My friend who was raped, to this day has a hard time with it and that was a year ago. She feels like she did something wrong...and she did not. The rapist was the one who was in the wrong, not her.
If you say that a woman who is raped has no right to get an abortion then you are certainly supporting rape. And that you would not care if multiple women where raped and forced to have a child that will remind her of that horrible time. I have seen women that where raped who went through with the pregnancy...some become so depressed that they attempt suicide, to me this is worse than having an abortion. Some of the women have the child and give it up for adoption, this is also not an easy thing to do. How about a child who was kept by his raped mother? My friend is the result of a raped pregnancy, everyday he wishes he wasnt alive, his father is a rapist and his mother doesnt love him. She even says this to him on a regular basis, tells him that he was a mistake.
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