Constitutional authority for mandating health insurance? (speech, lobby, bias, carry)
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Please don't attempt to argument before a Federal Court...
The 10th Amendment seems to be the go to argument whether it has anything to do with the issue at hand or not... so, what in the Constitution precludes the Federal government from establishing a mandatory health care plan which would be precluded by the 10th Amendment?
The 10th Amendment is what limits the powers of the federal government to only those specified within the US Constitution. When the States gave the federal government very specific powers when they ratified the US Constitution, they did not give the federal government unlimited powers. All powers not given to the federal government by the States, and are not prohibited by the US Constitution, belong entirely to the States and/or the People.
The federal government cannot do whatever it feels like, it is constrained to only those specific powers the US Constitution gives them. If they try to do anything beyond what the US Constitution gives them the power to do, then the federal government is usurping that power from the States and violating the 10th Amendment in the process.
The 10th Amendment is what limits the powers of the federal government to only those specified within the US Constitution.
Quite the contrary, the Constitution is vague enough on a number of Federal powers that, quite rightly, allow enough flexibility for it to govern issues that had yet to arrive.
Article I, Section 8
Is more than sufficiently broad, as the Courts have determined over that last 200 years, as to render your absolutist argument null and void.
The federal government cannot do whatever it feels like, it is constrained to only those specific powers the US Constitution gives them. If they try to do anything beyond what the US Constitution gives them the power to do, then the federal government is usurping that power from the States and violating the 10th Amendment in the process.[/quote]
You are partially right. The fed can get through a lot of laws but they do have to come in under one of the enumerated powers. Normally laws are justified by the commerce Clause, 14th Amendment. Even when Congress does not have the power to create a law that is completely non economic they can use the power of the purse to not give aid to states that do not follow their mandates. I understand what you are saying about the 10th amendment, but it has been pretty much eviscerated by Supreme Court rulings.
There is no such thing as the "General Welfare" Clause. Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of which you speak is the power to "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises" FOR THE PURPOSE OF paying off the debts "and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States".
The "general Welfare" is the purpose for the power to tax, not a power in and of itself.
I just said that.
And I ignored your "No such thing as a General Welfare Clause" in hopes that you would quit saying something so silly and turn instead to the argument I made. Or do you NEED me to point out that the words in Art 1 Sec 8 Para 1 *are* what people refer to as the "Welfare Clause", and so the words DO deserve the title, even when people use the clause wrongly?
Are we all straightened out about that now?
As I said, the General Welfare clause is not a permission to do anything the govt thinks will help anyone, any time, as most big-govt advocates try to insist. Rather, it is a restriction, saying that govt can spend tax money ONLY on defense and on things that benefit ALL citizens EQUALLY... and not on things that only benefit Pennsylvania, or blacks, or business owners, or left-handed redheads... or people needing medical care.
And where does the 10th amendment come in?
The Constitution lists no authority for the Fed govt to run universal socialized medical care. And the 10th says that if a power is not listed in the Constitution, then the Fed govt is FORBIDDEN to exercise that power. But the states and the people still can if they want to.
Quite the contrary, the Constitution is vague enough on a number of Federal powers that, quite rightly, allow enough flexibility for it to govern issues that had yet to arrive.
Article I, Section 8
Is more than sufficiently broad, as the Courts have determined over that last 200 years, as to render your absolutist argument null and void.
Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution lists 18 very specific, and enumerated, powers. The US Constitution is not "sufficiently broad", it is in fact very specific, as is the 10th Amendment.
Quote:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The Constitution lists no authority for the Fed govt to run universal socialized medical care. And the 10th says that if a power is not listed in the Constitution, then the Fed govt is FORBIDDEN to exercise that power. But the states and the people still can if they want to.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
I'm still waiting for a citation of the prohibition.
The Constitution lists no authority for the Fed govt to run universal socialized medical care. And the 10th says that if a power is not listed in the Constitution, then the Fed govt is FORBIDDEN to exercise that power. But the states and the people still can if they want to.[/quote]
My God. Why do I write. Please read my other posts. I will say it again. The Federal government is indeed limited to what laws that the federal government may enact. The power to enact laws must flow through one of the enumerated powers. The power to regulate interstate commerce has been repeatedly upheld where there is shown what the legislature is trying to regulate has a substantial (economic) impact on interstate commerce. This is the law of the land. Although you believe these laws are forbidden, the Supreme Court would disagree with you and since congress is more likely to listen to what the Supreme Court says instead of you...this is really a non issue.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
I'm still waiting for a citation of the prohibition.
(sigh) "reserved to the states" means that the states can have them, and the Fed can't.
Sort of like, if you get a reservation at a restaurant, that means you can sit at that table when the time comes, and other groups can't.
And I ignored your "No such thing as a General Welfare Clause" in hopes that you would quit saying something so silly and turn instead to the argument I made. Or do you NEED me to point out that the words in Art 1 Sec 8 Para 1 *are* what people refer to as the "Welfare Clause", and so the words DO deserve the title, even when people use the clause wrongly?
Only those who are truly ignorant, or deliberately wish to subvert the US Constitution intentions, would entitle a Clause after its purpose and not its power. To claim that there is a "General Welfare" Clause in the US Constitution is the epitome of ignorance, when in reality no such clause exists. So you can remain ignorant and continue to refer to Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the US Constitution as the "General Welfare" Clause. Or you can pretend to have actually read the document and not make such ignorant references in the future.
Are we all straightened out about that now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn
As I said, the General Welfare clause is not a permission to do anything the govt thinks will help anyone, any time, as most big-govt advocates try to insist. Rather, it is a restriction, saying that govt can spend tax money ONLY on defense and on things that benefit ALL citizens EQUALLY... and not on things that only benefit Pennsylvania, or blacks, or business owners, or left-handed redheads... or people needing medical care.
Incorrect. Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 gives Congress the power to levy taxes, duties, etc. for the purpose of paying off debt, the general defense, and the general welfare as defined by the 17 subsequent Clauses identified under Article I, Section 8. It does not grant Congress the power to do whatever they please for the General Welfare. That would reduce the entire US Constitution to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the US; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn
And where does the 10th amendment come in?
The Constitution lists no authority for the Fed govt to run universal socialized medical care. And the 10th says that if a power is not listed in the Constitution, then the Fed govt is FORBIDDEN to exercise that power. But the states and the people still can if they want to.
Correct. When the States ratified the US Constitution they gave to the federal government very specific powers. Congress does not have the authority to usurp any additional powers from the States unless the US Constitution is amended by the States first.
(sigh) "reserved to the states" means that the states can have them, and the Fed can't.
Sort of like, if you get a reservation at a restaurant, that means you can sit at that table when the time comes, and other groups can't.
See how it works, now?
You can sigh until the cows come home but your argument but your argument fails because you have yet to demonstrate how the such a mandate is precluded. It is all fine and good to argue that rights not reserved etc, etc, but you need to demonstrate what right in this regard the Fed is precluded from exercising.
The second weakness of your argument is attempting to argue the Constitutionality of law that hasn't been written.
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