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The Libertarian values are good to have in the discussion, but I have not seen Ron Paul make any real effort for a progressive push. He's more of a take the hands off and let it go, which we learned when Bush tried doing that just how incapable we are of handling ourselves.
What would be an example of a "big tax government initiative" you don't agree with?
I think the flat tax is a good idea. I don't really see a need for progressive tax structures.
I think unions, which served a strong role when the economy was just getting going, have way over stepped their bounds and have really hurt the industrial states (perhaps the teachers union being the worst offender across the nation).
I think the welfare system is broke and abused. Democrats basically dangle money in front of poor people's faces and buy their votes. It's immoral, if you ask me, to create an institution that makes it easier for a person to become dependent than to fend for themselves. Though, I do support limited welfare because not everybody has a rich uncle to bail them out when s hits the fan.
I could go on, but that's a few. I've worked with federal government on projects and know firsthand the depth of bureaucratic hell is not the most effective means of making anything happen.
A social progressive movement tied to true fiscal conservatism would, I think, garner a great deal of support.
I imagine people saying, for example, "Okay. We are destroying our planet. Rather than fight it or tax the hell out of people, let's find ways for the market solve it." That's starting to happen, but not enough.
There's really no reason social progressive values must be hinged to fiscally liberal values any more than there's a reason fiscal conservatives must somehow share a bed with people who seek to use government to impose their religious values. It's just the way things have shaken out.
Sure there is. You are not going to change people's behavior without providing a system set up to punish undesirable behavior and/or reward good behavior. Tax policy does this, regulations and fines do this. Fiscal conservatives want no part of this. They want very few taxes, deregulation, and small government. Let the free market decide.
Last edited by padcrasher; 06-07-2009 at 10:40 PM..
Republicans have declared war on the middle class and destroyed their ability to prosper.
Thats a bit of a stretch considering both parties are really just out for the wealthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djm666
They have encouraged the exporting of good paying jobs and the destruction of our manufacturing base continuing the shrinking of your customer base.
We are not losing manufacturing jobs, except recent recession based loses. We have moved towards automated manufacturing. Either way both parties have played huge roles in outsourcing. Clinton = NAFTA and Most Favored Nation status to China in the WTO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djm666
Health care is a major expense that Republicans don't want to fix. Again, please explain why you would vote Republican?
Health care is really one of the few advantages that the Ds could give to the middle class. It is long overdue, but will they actually make it happen? If not they have just become the party that is all talk.
I think the flat tax is a good idea. I don't really see a need for progressive tax structures.
I think unions, which served a strong role when the economy was just getting going, have way over stepped their bounds (perhaps the teachers union being the worst offender).
I think the welfare system is broke and abused. Democrats basically dangle money in front of poor people's faces and buy their votes. It's immoral, if you ask me, to create an institution that denies someone the ability to fend for themselves. Though, I do support limited welfare because not everybody has a rich uncle to bail them out when s hits the fan.
I could go on, but that's a few. I worked with federal government on projects and know firsthand the depth of bureaucratic hell is not the most effective means of making anything happen.
You've just bought into a bunch of right wing storylines.
Welfare is a paltry amount of the budget. It's had time limits since Clinton was in office. Is their some abuse? Of course. And everyone supports measures to combat this. What area of anything we do in the US is not abused by bad apples?
And flat tax would raise taxes on the middle class. Why would you expect the middle class to accept this? A progressive tax stucture works all over the Western world. Only US right wing kooks buy into this scam.
A social progressive movement tied to true fiscal conservatism would, I think, garner a great deal of support.
I imagine people saying, for example, "Okay. We are destroying our planet. Rather than fight it or tax the hell out of people, let's find ways for the market solve it." That's starting to happen, but not enough.
There's really no reason social progressive values must be hinged to fiscally liberal values any more than there's a reason fiscal conservatives must somehow share a bed with people who seek to use government to impose their religious values. It's just the way things have shaken out.
Yeah, and it's clear that a lot of folks are unhappy with it - I'd say more on the Republican side than on the Democratic side - at least for now.
Sad, but true. As some libertarians have pointed out to me, most Americans say they want freedom, but they don't really mean it. They're scared by it.
Most Libertarians on this board say they want freedom but 90% of them are right wing gun nuts/ conspiracy theorists.
They only come out of the woodwork when Dems are in control. They openly mock the ACLU, they are happy with illegal wiretapping when the "good guys" do it to the "bad guys". They support torture of "suspected" terrorists.
They want to keep evidence of Government crimes hidden so it will not "embolden our enemies"...LOL
I don't think I've ever run accross a true Libertarian on this board.
Most Libertarians on this board say they want freedom but 90% of them are right wing gun nuts/ conspiracy theorists.
They only come out of the woodwork when Dems are in control. They openly mock the ACLU, they are happy with illegal wiretapping when the "good guys" do it to the "bad guys". They support torture of "suspected" terrorists.
They want to keep evidence of Government crimes hidden so it will not "embolden our enemies"...LOL
I don't think I've ever run accross a true Libertarian on this board.
Hmm. I think there's a few of them. I know they exist. I tried out that philosophy for awhile, but I can't get into the idea that having "no government" is always better than having "some" government.
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