Obama sides against Gays in "Don't ask, don't tell" case (employment, weapons)

[the one]

i dont agree with the seperate showers idea. thats just creates marks.

now those with a irrational dislike of someone based on what they do in the bedroom(aka bigots) can zero in on the gays and focus their energy on harrassing them.

seperate showers wont do any good.

shower stalls. maybe. but no seperate showers. it really isnt that big of a deal.

the presupposition here is that there are flaming homosexuals in the military. or that once this policy is repealed, the village people will head to the nearest recruiting office. thats not it.

most of those gays serving would be hard to pinpoint. they are just like everyone else.

it would be hard to know who is gay unless they said something. and most likely they would not because they do know how people feel. they would be open with friends (as many are), but why would they "flaunt" it? thats such a sensational idea. almost like a fantasy for some people. the scenarios they create in their heads

its like muslims in the military. they dont go around telling everyone they are muslim. and most times you cant really tell. but they dont deny it, and if someone targetted them for that reason (religion, since some dont like comparisons with black people) they would be protected.

this isnt that hard to get.

i know gays serving in the military. i have cousins who have served and made it a career. i have younger family enlisting. its not that big of a deal. at least not big enough to institute seperate showers

Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale

It's sexual orientation, not sexuality.

But yes, as I said, if the shower issue is the big argument against allowing gays to serve openly, then build separate showers.




It's pretty basic psychology that tells us it's not a good thing to force people to lie or cover up who they are. If you had to hide who you are, I'm sure you'd understand a little better.



I'm only pushing for it as a response to superficial issues like all-male-showers as a reason to continue discriminating against certain groups.

Again (how many times do I have to say it?), separate-but-equal would be better than shut-up-you-damn-gays-or-you're-fired.

A question that no one has been able to answer: Why is the United States Military the only military in the modern world that can't handle soldiers being openly gay?

[Jzer21]

Originally Posted by AeroGuyDC

I've seen the polls. I've heard all of the arguments. And i've also served in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan with grunts of every background you can think of.

Just curious-how recently did you serve?

[karfar]

Let me get this straight...so you guys have no problem w/soldiers serving & dying for our country but if one of them mentions in a conversation that they have a same-sex partner you support persecuting them??? How absolutely ludicrous, not to mention offensive.

[Lakewooder]

Speaking of showers, I can remember when blacks were not allowed to swim with whites...

[reconmark]

Originally Posted by karfar

Let me get this straight...so you guys have no problem w/soldiers serving & dying for our country but if one of them mentions in a conversation that they have a same-sex partner you support persecuting them??? How absolutely ludicrous, not to mention offensive.

No, not "persecuting them", discharging them!
The policy is simple, keep your business to yourself!!
No one has the right to ask you, and if it's a peer or subordinate you tell them it's not their business.


The "grunts" are a world unto themselves in the Marine Corps and I am proud to have be a member.

I graduated boot camp at Camp Pendleton in Ca.
Infantry Training School, San Onefre Ca.
Jungle Warfare School, Ft.Sherman Panama.
Amphibious Warfare School,Little Creek Va.
Mountain and Cold Weather school, Pickle Meadow Ca.
Urban Warfare school,Camp Lejeune,N.C.
Marine 8151 course/Security detachment for classified naval weapons.
Marine Pistol course/Expert designation.

In addition I was required to complete many field and class courses in order to be promoted in my field, I qualified with the m-16 a1 and a2(Expert designation)SAW, LAW, DRAGON, and M203.

When grunts are in the field there is no such thing as privacy and separate showers and the warrior mentality that some would call outdated or back wards is the backbone of unit cohesion, "I'll die for you and you'll die for me".

We had a GySgt that we believed to be gay but he never pushed the subject and therefore was treated respectfully from a distance. That rank is not easy to attain so he had to know his stuff and be proficient in the skills for that rank.

Near the completion of his rotation in our company, someone said something to him possibly concerning his "inclinations" and he felt it necessary to "out" himself very militantly to the entire company during p.t.

This Marine lost all respect from both subordinate and peers, he undermined himself and was shortly transferred to places unknown, due to his inability to maintain unit cohesion and order.

Most of the Marines were content to "tolerate" him because he did his job and carried out his duties as well as everyone else, no one cared what he did off base because he did not broadcast it, when he did, his authority and ability to lead was compromised.

Society "may" be able to force open homosexuality on servicemen in other career areas, where there is a more accepting and tolerating culture.
However if you want something unfortunate to take place or destroy the unit cohesion and warrior mentality of combat arms units, try to force openly homosexual marines in that unit.

Marines will follow orders, however they will not 100% push any policy they believe will cost Marines their lives.

[Yeledaf]

Originally Posted by reconmark

No, not "persecuting them", discharging them!

How interesting that being discharged from the military can be considered "persecution" by some folks.

I guess that's what we get for abolishing the draft: an ignorant citizenry.

[karfar]

Originally Posted by Yeledaf

How interesting that being discharged from the military can be considered "persecution" by some folks.

I guess that's what we get for abolishing the draft: an ignorant citizenry.

Hmm, well I guess I must have been wrong in my reading of some posts on this thread, sounds like persecution to me.

[AnUnidentifiedMale]

reconmark, why do you think the U.S. Military is the only military in the modern world that can't handle soldiers being openly gay?

As for "keeping your business to yourself", I assume you mean that homosexuals should keep their business to themselves. I've never heard of a heterosexual soldier hiding the fact that he has a girlfriend or a wife.

[reconmark]

Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale

reconmark, why do you think the U.S. Military is the only military in the modern world that can't handle soldiers being openly gay?

As for "keeping your business to yourself", I assume you mean that homosexuals should keep their business to themselves. I've never heard of a heterosexual soldier hiding the fact that he has a girlfriend or a wife.

Even heterosexuals have some "business" they keep to themselves. Prior to joining the Corps I belonged to an church called "The Shrine of the Black Madonna" it did not preach hate for white people.
It taught that black people should know their true history and contributions not only in Africa but in the U.S. also.
It did teach on the history of White historical racism on every continent of the world where Europeans ventured and the destruction of the indigenous cultures.
It also taught that black people have to be more educated, self sufficient,responsible, and giving back to their society and people.
It taught that you accept all people as long as they meant you no harm.

I was one of a few blacks at some of my school and stations and became very close with Marines of all backgrounds, however I had some Marines who were plainly prejudiced against blacks and other minorities.
I was called a "Ni@@er" to my face for the first time by a Marine, I lost a stripe he lost a straight nose!

It would have been totally counterproductive to the unit and introduced racial strife had I divulged my affiliation with a "Pan-African" church.

This was a part of my private life and I keep it to myself.

I'm sure there are a million other stories of heterosexuals keeping some things private.
They do it to preserve the unit and to keep their business out of other people's mouth who would use it to stir up trouble.

[AnUnidentifiedMale]

Originally Posted by reconmark

I'm sure there are a million other stories of heterosexuals keeping some things private.
They do it to preserve the unit and to keep their business out of other people's mouth who would use it to stir up trouble.

But what you described was a choice that you made to not talk about your church.

I doubt there are any heterosexual soldiers who think twice about saying the words "my wife" or "my girlfriend", but if a female soldier says "my wife" or "my girlfriend", then it becomes grounds for termination? Sorry, but that's not fair at all. I know life isn't fair, but I think it's ridiculous to fire a male soldier for mentioning a boyfriend/husband, or to fire a female soldier for mentioning a girlfriend/wife. Personal conduct while on the job is what should matter.

This policy is on the way out. Thank goodness.