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Old 06-12-2009, 09:55 AM
 
42,102 posts, read 26,181,454 times
Reputation: 13859

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
You have a valid point - in part - because the language in use is so mottled with reversed meanings, that it is improbable that anyone espousing a "wing" position, is fully aware of it.

Let's consider the wing with which people are associated with, when speaking of political partisanship.
LEFT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holds the most left or radical views.
- - - Webster's Dictionary

RIGHT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holding the views of the Right.
- - - Webster's Dictionary

THE RIGHT - that section of a political party ... which associates itself with traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the right of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary

THE LEFT - that section of a political party ... which differs most from traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the left of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
Is that clear?
Left = opposition to traditional authority or opinion
Right = support of traditional authority or opinion

Pursuant to the Declaration of Independence, governments are instituted among men to :
(1) secure rights (life, liberty, property); and
(2) govern those who consent.

That's the "traditional authority" or "opinion" that founded these united States.

Ergo, a TRUE RIGHT WINGER would be in support of the individual's right to life and opposed to anything that impairs or denies that right to life... like predatory attacks, poisoning, and covert schemes to rob.
A TRUE RIGHT WINGER would be in support of liberty (i.e., natural and personal), and would oppose any reduction in natural and personal liberty.
A TRUE RIGHT WINGER would be in support of an individual's right to absolutely own himself, his labor and the fruits of his labor.

Do you find yourself in agreement with THESE "right wing" opinions?
Or do you oppose them?

If you do oppose them, then you are LEFT WING, despite calling yourself "right wing" "neocon" "fascist" or any other derogatory label.
You are opposed to private property ownership, natural and personal liberty, and the freedom of the individual.

Remember, socialism = piracy. Socialists seek to dispossess private property owners, and transfer their property into collective ownership, managed by the benevolent STATE.
Socialists, by definition, are LEFT WING - which means that the "Fascists" and "NAZIs" of WW2 were LEFT WING, not RIGHT WING.
It was self evident that Mussolini and Hitler had no respect for the individual, his rights, his liberties, or his property.

And since 1935, the U.S.A. has been socialist, via "voluntary" participation in Socialist InSecurity. Which might explain why Americans no longer absolutely own anything, and if they fail to pay their socialist taxes, the government TAKES their property, their liberty, and in some cases, their LIVES.

Welcome to the United Socialist States of America!
Fascists, Nazis are not left-wing. Fascism is generally considered right-wing. You cannot classify ideology without examining the ideology. Which means you don't consider just the positions, but the rationale behind the positions.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:42 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
16,167 posts, read 12,828,732 times
Reputation: 14766
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Ok, I'm a "left wing liberal" I don't have the slightest problem with disassociating myself from the ultra left, be they communist, eco-terrorist, or any fringe movement who advocates violence to advance their ideas, but it seems that time after time, conservatives have a real tough time doing the same regarding violent anti-abortionist, white supremacist, or general ultra right lunatics. I would think that an intellectually honest conservative wouldn't have the slightest problem with castigating the fringe elements of their political side of the aisle, so what's up with that?
Ok, I'm a 'right wing conservative' and I have no problem whatsoever disavowing the 'ultra right' factions. The raving religious wackos, neo nazis etc, trip my contempt switch. I'm not to sure how you came to the conclusion that you are espousing here but it seems that , maybe, you see what you WANT to see and not what actually is? As to 'intellectual honesty', I prefer to call my disassociation with the aforementioned groups common sense and realism. Any rabid and foaming radical just makes me shake my head be they left or right in their views. It's pretty easy to see when someone is basing their ravings on pure emotion rather than well thought out facts and real world experience. Personally, I see no distintion twixt liberals or conservatives in the ability to seperate themselves from the radical fringes. But thats just me............
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:20 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,876 posts, read 13,711,061 times
Reputation: 5232
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Ok, I'm a "left wing liberal" I don't have the slightest problem with disassociating myself from the ultra left, be they communist, eco-terrorist, or any fringe movement who advocates violence to advance their ideas, but it seems that time after time, conservatives have a real tough time doing the same regarding violent anti-abortionist, white supremacist, or general ultra right lunatics. I would think that an intellectually honest conservative wouldn't have the slightest problem with castigating the fringe elements of their political side of the aisle, so what's up with that?

so you are against all socialist ideals and movements as well?

to include goverment welfare, federal banking, social services and everything thing else having to do with a socialist society?

let me know when you start wanting less of a socialist goverment, and I shall welcome you to the Libertarian side of things.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:36 AM
 
11,127 posts, read 13,099,813 times
Reputation: 3686
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
so you are against all socialist ideals and movements as well?

to include goverment welfare, federal banking, social services and everything thing else having to do with a socialist society?

let me know when you start wanting less of a socialist goverment, and I shall welcome you to the Libertarian side of things.
I thought this was about disavowing extremist, why are you attempting to suggest otherwise?
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:41 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,876 posts, read 13,711,061 times
Reputation: 5232
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
I thought this was about disavowing extremist, why are you attempting to suggest otherwise?

he said:
Quote:
I don't have the slightest problem with disassociating myself from the ultra left
to me that means that almost all of the liberal issues are extremist, and he should be against them.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:47 AM
LML
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,110 posts, read 8,394,493 times
Reputation: 5171
When I say I am pro life and against abortions then the left wing write hateful things about me and call me a nazi and anti female. When I say I am pro life and against the death penalty and almost all wars then the right wing write hateful things about me and call me a socialist. I think it is safe to say that almost anyone who holds strong convictions and tries to live up to them will be hated by both sides.

Sometimes I find it amusing that the same people who are "pro choice" when it comes to ending the life of another are anti choice when it comes to things like smoking, driving the type of car you want, eating the kind of food you want, etc. etc.

I also find it amusing that the same people who are "pro life" when it comes to protecting the unborn are often against all the programs that make it possible to sustain that life after it is born... such as health care, early education, food, shelter and clothing assistance, etc. etc.

Go figure.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:54 AM
 
11,127 posts, read 13,099,813 times
Reputation: 3686
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
he said:


to me that means that almost all of the liberal issues are extremist, and he should be against them.
Exactly, to you anything to the left of Rush Limbaugh by .0000000000000000000000000000004 degrees is a crazy leftist nutjob. However to most people they are known as the rest of America. It is one thing to take issue with aspects of the left and right, depending upon your views but once you label anything you disagree with as extremist, then chances are, it is you who are the extremist.
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:04 PM
 
302 posts, read 540,979 times
Reputation: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Ok, I'm a "left wing liberal" I don't have the slightest problem with disassociating myself from the ultra left, be they communist, eco-terrorist, or any fringe movement who advocates violence to advance their ideas, but it seems that time after time, conservatives have a real tough time doing the same regarding violent anti-abortionist, white supremacist, or general ultra right lunatics. I would think that an intellectually honest conservative wouldn't have the slightest problem with castigating the fringe elements of their political side of the aisle, so what's up with that?


I don't lump the left together. I know that there are the fringe elements that don't represent the whole democratic party. My father in law a lovely man was a life long democrat married to my mother in law a life long republican. They were married for 40 years and managed to agree on most issues. They managed to raise 4 kids, two republicans and two democrats.

All republicans tend to be lumped together as evil "neocon" homophobe,racists on this board. Crazy people.

I am a conservative Christian not a crazy. I get tired of reading post after post that make ridiculous assertions that pro-life equals shooting abortion doctors. I was apalled when I heard that George Tiller had been killed, no one should be gunned down- nothing was served there. The pro-life movement is damaged by that behavior.

I hate racist behavior from anyone, black, brown or white- it serves no one. But post after post says that being a republican equals being a racist. I do believe that racism is a problem and it is a problem for all races. I look at a person's character not his race. That is a separate issue from illegal immigration which has a negative impact on this country.

I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman- sorry, I guess I won't win any beauty pageants. Does that make me a homophobe? I'm not afraid of homosexuals it's not fear. It is not in my belief system to think that marriage should be for same sex couples. Do I hold up signs and make hateful comments. No. That isn't right. Would I love one of my children any less if he came to me and said he was gay? I would love my child and would do my best to accept that.

I think government should be smaller. I recognise that if you raise the taxes on business that cost will be passed down to the consumer. I see "green legislation" as a way to extract even more money with little accountability for any result. Any tax or cost placed on businesses filters down to the consumer.

I love my country and do not want to see it be given over to socialism. That is the direction we are headed. I believe in states rights and see more and more the encroachment of the federal government into states rights.

I believe that health care is between me and my doctor and not the government. I see the right to speak freely being eroded by political correctness and the right to bear arms (I don't have a gun cuz' I'm a big chicken) being threatened by media reaction to crazies.

I think children should be educated strongly in the fundamentals. I think the rest needs to be done by parents. I think parents need to do their job, not abdicate the responsibility to others. I don't think that I want the 'state' to decide what my children's values will be. That is my job.

I pray for our President because he is in authority. I pray that good things happen, that his family is protected, that he makes good decisions. I do not pray that he fails or is harmed.


I am a republican and I don't embrace the crazies.
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Old 06-12-2009, 01:28 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,387 posts, read 8,669,588 times
Reputation: 4070
Default Why Is It So Hard For the Right To Disavow Right Wing Extremist?

The moderates have largely bailed on the GOP, me included.

The remains of the Republican party has to suck up to the extremists. It's all they have left.
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:25 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,695,994 times
Reputation: 2050
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
You have a valid point - in part - because the language in use is so mottled with reversed meanings, that it is improbable that anyone espousing a "wing" position, is fully aware of it.

Let's consider the wing with which people are associated with, when speaking of political partisanship.
LEFT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holds the most left or radical views.
- - - Webster's Dictionary

RIGHT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holding the views of the Right.
- - - Webster's Dictionary

THE RIGHT - that section of a political party ... which associates itself with traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the right of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary

THE LEFT - that section of a political party ... which differs most from traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the left of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
Is that clear?
Left = opposition to traditional authority or opinion
Right = support of traditional authority or opinion

Pursuant to the Declaration of Independence, governments are instituted among men to :
(1) secure rights (life, liberty, property); and
(2) govern those who consent.

That's the "traditional authority" or "opinion" that founded these united States.

Ergo, a TRUE RIGHT WINGER would be in support of the individual's right to life and opposed to anything that impairs or denies that right to life... like predatory attacks, poisoning, and covert schemes to rob.
A TRUE RIGHT WINGER would be in support of liberty (i.e., natural and personal), and would oppose any reduction in natural and personal liberty.
A TRUE RIGHT WINGER would be in support of an individual's right to absolutely own himself, his labor and the fruits of his labor.

Do you find yourself in agreement with THESE "right wing" opinions?
Or do you oppose them?

If you do oppose them, then you are LEFT WING, despite calling yourself "right wing" "neocon" "fascist" or any other derogatory label.
You are opposed to private property ownership, natural and personal liberty, and the freedom of the individual.

Remember, socialism = piracy. Socialists seek to dispossess private property owners, and transfer their property into collective ownership, managed by the benevolent STATE.
Socialists, by definition, are LEFT WING - which means that the "Fascists" and "NAZIs" of WW2 were LEFT WING, not RIGHT WING.
It was self evident that Mussolini and Hitler had no respect for the individual, his rights, his liberties, or his property.

And since 1935, the U.S.A. has been socialist, via "voluntary" participation in Socialist InSecurity. Which might explain why Americans no longer absolutely own anything, and if they fail to pay their socialist taxes, the government TAKES their property, their liberty, and in some cases, their LIVES.

Welcome to the United Socialist States of America!
How insightful of you! Thank you for typing this. Let's see...

Traditional authority...founding documents...blacks not "full" persons...white supremacist...yep...I got it! Thank you.

As jet has so eloquently outlined for us here, white supremacy is most definitely right wing. As she puts it, white supremacists are TRUE RIGHT WINGERS.
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