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Old 06-12-2009, 03:12 PM
LML
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,110 posts, read 8,404,944 times
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I was thinking this afternoon of John Quincy Adams. Elected to the senate as a Federalist he soon became hated by the Federalist, mocked, called names, etc. Why? Because he stood by his conscience and beliefs and would not vote against the good of the nation so that he could win the approbation of those who put temporary material gain over long-term historical good for the country. Were it not for his "disloyalty" to his party, there would be no U.S.A. but rather a continent divided between Britian and France. History has proved him right and long forgotten those who would have traded our sovereignty for gold. But it only happened because he was willing to pay the price for going against party loyalty in exchange for national good. Where are the leaders of today that could say the same?
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
15,082 posts, read 10,878,197 times
Reputation: 11791
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Fascists, Nazis are not left-wing. Fascism is generally considered right-wing. You cannot classify ideology without examining the ideology. Which means you don't consider just the positions, but the rationale behind the positions.
See? Your assumption is refuted by the dictionary definitions. Did someone deliberately mislead us to make the WRONG CONCLUSION?

If FASCISM was truly "right wing" (supportive of traditional authority or opinion), in Italy or Germany, why did Hitler and Mussolini overturn the "traditional authority", and impose collectivist ideas and STATE supremacy over the individual?

The TRUTH based on definitions, is that Fascism / Nazism were both LEFT WING, and in conflict with other LEFT WING European interests (USSR, England, France, etc).

I will admit I am in error if you can show that Fascists and Nazis didn't take private property for use by the State. Or that they had respect for the person or property of their people. But from all evidence in the record, they were nothing less than LEFT WING revolutionaries.

"Traditional Authority" = Thou Shalt Not Kill and Thou Shalt Not Steal.

The socialist "left" are pirates, trying to convince each other of the morality of collective thievery. Robbing St Peter to pay St Paul is not heavenly, no matter how cleverly they spin it.

Voluntary charity is a blessing.
Compulsory charity is a curse.

Using the awesome force of government to dispossess property owners does not make it moral, logical, nor constitutional. Using excuses like, "It's for the children!" is insufficient, especially when socialist pirates take their cut of the booty before it's distributed to the needy / greedy.

And make no mistake, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, etc, all took a substantial cut of the booty stolen from the people.
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
15,082 posts, read 10,878,197 times
Reputation: 11791
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
How insightful of you! Thank you for typing this. Let's see...

Traditional authority...founding documents...blacks not "full" persons...white supremacist...yep...I got it! Thank you.

As jet has so eloquently outlined for us here, white supremacy is most definitely right wing. As she puts it, white supremacists are TRUE RIGHT WINGERS.
You failed to note that SLAVE blacks were not the "full persons" for purposes of proportional representation, and denied citizenship. However, there was no legal impairment to a free black man to enjoy sovereign prerogatives (natural and personal liberty). However, since citizenship is a step DOWN in status, and service is a privilege, the founding fathers were discriminating against free black men to serve in government.

"White Supremacy" of "white citizens" is an oxymoron.
All citizens, regardless of color, are subjects of government.
"... the term 'citizen,' in the United States, is analogous to the term "subject" in the common law; the change of phrase has resulted from the change in government. ... he who before was a "subject of the King" is now a citizen of the State."
State v. Manuel, 20 N.C. 144 (1838)
If one wishes to be supreme, one need only change status from citizen to sovereign.

References:
"Government is not Sovereignty. Government is the machinery or expedient for expressing the will of the sovereign power."
City of Bisbee v. Cochise County, 78 P. 2d 982, 986, 52 Ariz. 1

"People are supreme, not the state."
Waring v. the Mayor of Savannah, 60 GA at 93.

"The people of the state, as the successors of its former sovereign, are entitled to all the rights which formerly belonged to the king by his own prerogative."
Lansing v. Smith, (1829) 4 Wendell 9, (NY)

"At the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people and they are truly the sovereigns of the country."
Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 Dall. 440, 463
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:38 PM
 
Location: The Butte
156 posts, read 114,113 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Ok, I'm a "left wing liberal" I don't have the slightest problem with disassociating myself from the ultra left, be they communist, eco-terrorist, or any fringe movement who advocates violence to advance their ideas, but it seems that time after time, conservatives have a real tough time doing the same regarding violent anti-abortionist, white supremacist, or general ultra right lunatics. I would think that an intellectually honest conservative wouldn't have the slightest problem with castigating the fringe elements of their political side of the aisle, so what's up with that?
They can't. They wait in the shadows with baited breath hoping for the next violent act, and drool for more killings of baby killers, or any other cause they deem righteous.
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:42 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,445 posts, read 23,947,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Exactly, to you anything to the left of Rush Limbaugh by .0000000000000000000000000000004 degrees is a crazy leftist nutjob. However to most people they are known as the rest of America. It is one thing to take issue with aspects of the left and right, depending upon your views but once you label anything you disagree with as extremist, then chances are, it is you who are the extremist.
That is EXACTLY right!
And that is EXACTLY what Monkeywrenching JUST DID.
Case closed.

Ken
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
17,354 posts, read 30,895,706 times
Reputation: 13376
Quote:
[b]Why Is [b]It So Hard For the Right To Disavow Right Wing Extremist
For the same reasons that It's So Hard For the LEFT To Disavow LEFT Wing Extremists.

There are both right and left wing extremists.
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:17 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,445 posts, read 23,947,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
For the same reasons that It's So Hard For the LEFT To Disavow LEFT Wing Extremists.

There are both right and left wing extremists.
Sure there are. The difference is the Left doesn't deny that they have extremists. How often do you see denials that eco-terrorist are on the Left, that Radical Feminists are on the Left, that Communists are on the Left. The answer is - virtually never.

Not so with the Right. Just look at the all the denials that the Holocaust shooter was an extreme Right-Wing guy, the denials the Tim McVeigh was a Rightwinger. It happens over and over again - beginning with denials that Hitler was an extreme Rightwinger.

Ken

PS - and for those who buy the BS argument that Hitler was a Socialist because the NAZI party was called the National Socialist party - that's a load of cr*p. What it was called doesn't matter. It's what it DID that counts. Anything else is just PR. Hitler was a Fascist which places him on the RIGHT - that's why he was allied with Fascist Italy (which was on the Right - the term Fascist was even coined about Italy) and AGAINST the Communist USSR (which was on the Left).

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fa...f_char_hx.html

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

http://www.conservative-resources.com/images/right_wing_vs_left_wing.gif (broken link)

Last edited by LordBalfor; 06-12-2009 at 07:34 PM..
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
17,354 posts, read 30,895,706 times
Reputation: 13376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Ok, I'm a "left wing liberal" I don't have the slightest problem with disassociating myself from the ultra left, be they communist, eco-terrorist, or any fringe movement who advocates violence to advance their ideas, but it seems that time after time, conservatives have a real tough time doing the same regarding violent anti-abortionist, white supremacist, or general ultra right lunatics. I would think that an intellectually honest conservative wouldn't have the slightest problem with castigating the fringe elements of their political side of the aisle, so what's up with that?
Do you really believe that right wing conservatives don't feel the same way you do in relation to right wing extremists? Extremists are just that, "extremists," and they are on both sides: left and right.
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
17,354 posts, read 30,895,706 times
Reputation: 13376
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Sure there are. The difference is the Left doesn't deny that they have extremists. How often do you see denials that eco-terrorist are on the Left, that Radical Feminists are on the Left, that Communists are on the Left. The answer is - virtually never.

Not so with the Right. Just look at the all the denials that the Holocaust shooter was an extreme Right-Wing guy, the denials the Tim McVeigh was a Rightwinger. It happens over and over again - beginning with denials that Hitler was an extreme Rightwinger.

Ken
The "Holocaust shooter" was a Nazi sympathizer (sort of KKK), wasn't he? He hated Jews and blacks (including Obama), and denied that the Holocaust took place. In relation to Hitler, you got it all backwards: Hitler was a socialist (a member of the German Socialist Party). A lot of the religions in the US are conservative or "right," are staunch supporters of Israel, and accuse the left-leaning government of abandoning Israel. In fact, US Christians are the primary defenders of Israel.

Tim McVeigh was an anti Federal Government terrorist. The Unabomber was a leftist environmentalist (there are right wing environmentalists, too).
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:40 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,445 posts, read 23,947,439 times
Reputation: 7570
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
The "Holocaust shooter" was a Nazi sympathizer (sort of KKK), wasn't he? He hated Jews and blacks (including Obama), and denied that the Holocaust took place. In relation to Hitler, you got it all backwards: Hitler was a socialist (a member of the German Socialist Party). A lot of the religions in the US are conservative or "right," are staunch supporters of Israel, and accuse the left-leaning government of abandoning Israel. In fact, US Christians are the primary defenders of Israel.
From my post above:
"PS - and for those who buy the BS argument that Hitler was a Socialist because the NAZI party was called the National Socialist party - that's a load of cr*p. What it was called doesn't matter. It's what it DID that counts. Anything else is just PR. Hitler was a Fascist which places him on the RIGHT - that's why he was allied with Fascist Italy (which was on the Right - the term Fascist was even coined about Italy) and AGAINST the Communist USSR (which was on the Left)."

Folks on the Left are NOT anti-semitic and are not AGAINST Israel - nor against Jews, they are FOR a more balanced foreign policy approach and a realization that BOTH SIDES have legitimate arguments and that until those argument are ALL addressed there will be no lasting peace. Even Bush came to realize that.

Ken

PS - see the links in post#37
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