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Old 06-30-2009, 05:39 PM
 
Location: London UK & Florida USA
7,923 posts, read 8,831,554 times
Reputation: 2059

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan View Post
How's this for a reason;
Those who have the money to afford their own private health care are happy with what they have. Those who want government health care are not happy with the current system.
If we move to a government health care system that allows those who want to keep their current system, those who have the money to afford good private health care will keep that. Those who cannot afford the good private care will happily take the government plan, right?

Now, who's going to be paying for that government plan, which those with good private plans willnot use? It will be those same people who can afford the private plan, and therefore don't need the government plan. Will those people who want government heath care, because they can't afford good private care now, be asked to pony up any additional money in taxes? Likely not. So wht you are asking is for a bunch of people who are happy with what they have now to pay a bunch of money to the government so the government ccan give a bunch of OTHER people a benefit thaht those paying for it do not wnat or need.

Do you see the reason for the dissatisfaction?
I know for a fact that if a Country has a UHC the people with private insurance will use the UHC and use the Private as well. Private Health Insurance is available in all UHC Countries and it has to have low premiums to compete with the UHC. The reason for that is that most people, rich or poor would use the UHC to the detrement of the Private Insurance Companies if the Insurance Companies tried to charge what they charge in America. In a Country with a UHC you can afford both the UHC and top private cover for less than Americans now pay for their Health Insurance.
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,195,145 times
Reputation: 4937
Let's see: Americans love choices. So, as long as Americans can CHOOSE to either go under a public system OR go with a private system, everything will work out fine.

BUT, if the GOVERNMENT tries to MANDATE that EVERYONE must enroll in the public system, then you are going to have a problem. And frankly, this is one of the barriers being considered in the Congress now.
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Old 06-30-2009, 07:09 PM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,680,234 times
Reputation: 4209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
Let's see: Americans love choices. So, as long as Americans can CHOOSE to either go under a public system OR go with a private system, everything will work out fine.

BUT, if the GOVERNMENT tries to MANDATE that EVERYONE must enroll in the public system, then you are going to have a problem. And frankly, this is one of the barriers being considered in the Congress now.
Agreed. If there are greedy bastards actually considering forcing everyone on a public system, then let's just hope their voice is small in Congress.

Obama's plan entails the choice of which you speak. But, he leads only one branch of government.
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Old 06-30-2009, 07:42 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,261,181 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacredgrooves View Post
This is really simple; very little of what the government accomplishes turns out to be efficient and all encompassing. They will simply trade one set of problems for another, and most likely at a much higher end-result cost (to those who actually pay taxes that is). I could be persuaded into a catastrophic medical policy for all, but there is no way I would willingly hand over my day to day healthcare to the government. Yes, I understand that at the current time the saying is "if you like your current plan, you can keep it". Let us be real here though, this is a stepping stone to total takeover.
Because we can clearly see that public health care was merely the "stepping stone" to the now-completed "total takeover" of the Canadian people. In fact, I think it is our democratic duty to invade Canada and free all Canadians from their shackles.
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,195,145 times
Reputation: 4937
Private for-profit clinics are a booming business in Canada -- a country often touted as a successful example of a universal health system.

Facing long waits and substandard care, private clinics are proving that Canadians are willing to pay for treatment.

Canada Sees Boom in Private Health Care Business - Political News - FOXNews.com
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Illinois Delta
5,767 posts, read 5,006,403 times
Reputation: 2063
Quote:
Originally Posted by geeoro View Post
I live in America and the UK and there isn't much to know about the American Health System except that MONEY TALKS.
************************************************** *********

You can say that again!
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,711,467 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave View Post
And that's what is wrong with a lot of what goes on in government.

Our local Congressman voted yes on Cap and Trade despite an overwhelming turn out of the population stating NO.

IMHO a number of us who are either on the fence about UHC or against it feel that the government will base many decisions which will impact the standard of health care we receive upon a sample, or in the case of our local Congressman, listen only to a handful of constituents who have 'special interests' in the outcome.
If people stay awake in Poli Sci, they learn the way things really work. An elected person runs on a "plate" of issues. He knows that 90% of the voters in his district could care less about 90% of the issues he will vote on. But he also knows that the other 10% care greatly about certain issues. So he does the math and figures it this way: If 90% of the voters do not really care about "Cap and Trade", they are not going to vote against him if he votes for Cap and Trade BUT if 10% of his voters do care about it deeply, they will almost certainly vote on the basis of his vote. So far that 10% ("Special Interest") is almost exclusively FOR the Cap and Trade. The environmentalist may be a small movement but they are loud and they vote almost exclusively on the basis of these issues. And there is no passion or organization on the other side of Cap and Trade. That is why he votes the way he does. That is why fairly small groups of people in socieity are able to weld such big clout with elected officials on a variety of issues.
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:35 AM
 
4,526 posts, read 4,076,006 times
Reputation: 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
Insurance companies suck.... Public social programs suck... can we NOW move to a discussion about making a better system? Obviously neither of them are great.. so abandon both sides and start THINKING about other alternatives... geez...
Wow evilnewbie, I never thought I'd give you a positive rep. Keep i mind though this is a complex, multifaceted problem requiring the same kind of solution.

Alternatives...hmmm well first you need to list all of the problems.

Doctors are expensive because they pay a lot of money and have to suffer through medical school and residencies. They are expected to be perfect or they will be sued.

PCPs are not available enough and they are paid so little by comparison that they think its better of to be a specialist, as a result you can't get a minor problem taken care of until you go to an ER or wait until it gets worse and requires more money.

Nurses are expensive because they pay a fair amoun for school and take a lot of abuse from patients and their families.

Insurance companies make things more expensive because they aretrying to make a profit for people who do little patient care.

You never know when you are going to ge sick or injured, so you never know when you are going to need help.

Families take little part in the care ofthe sick because of lack of time due to work and other family members.

People expect medicine to be an excuse for people to neglect their problems and their bodies because there is some little pill out there that makes things better.

People don't follow through on treatment plans.

Here's some solution ideas:

Tort reform and limit med school costs for doctors who become PCPs and offer better hours.

Eliminate insurance beauracracy. Its money that should not be included in the cost of health care.

Taxes on foods that aren't healthy.

Workplaces more hospitable to bike commuters and showers. Shorter work weeks (an hour less a day without loss of pay) for those that will exercise in a company gym (something like that for accountability.) I don't know about you but when I work two jobs a day, I don't have the energy to exercise afterwards.

More family involvement with the execution of patient care to save costs.

There's some ideas.
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:40 AM
 
646 posts, read 1,637,349 times
Reputation: 200
There needs to be rigorous regulation of private insurance companies and a public option to compete with them and drive costs down.
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:09 PM
 
Location: toronto, Canada
773 posts, read 1,213,624 times
Reputation: 283
Here's a great site that allows victims of universal health care speak out about the cruel uncaring faceless bureaucracies that are allowed to determine the how's, when's, and if's health care will be dispensed. Nothing like letting a weasely tax auditing type bureaucrat a thousand miles away decide what is best for your health.
BigGovHealth | Health Care Horror Stories (http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories - broken link)
Universal health care is not about providing more health options for the poor, but about creating a regulatory network to help eliminate expenditure overruns for the government.
Let's bring health care down to the lowest common denominator is the mantra of the British and Canadian health ministries. The right of the citizen to pursue every available health service is denied, all in the quest of the minimum standard of equalization.

To wit, consider this;
"Personally, I do not see in Canada it would be a feasible thing if any Ministry organized taking over both the Health and the Disease of the entire community... even in the most favourable circumstances... there would be that absence of competition and that sense of independence... I do not believe it would be good for the profession or good for the Public."
- Sir William Osler in a speech to the Medical Society of the Canadian Army Medical Corps (1918)

"There will come a time when the Ministry of Health is the only Ministry we can afford to have and we still won't be able to afford the Ministry of Health"
- Dalton McGuinty, Premier of Ontario

"The evidence shows that delays in the public health care system are widespread and patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care"
- Supreme Court of Canada, June, 2005

"When consumers apply pressure on an industry, whether it's retailing or banking, cars or computers, it invariably produces a surge of innovation that increases productivity, reduces prices, improves quality and expands choices. The essential problem with the health care industry is that it has been shielded from consumer control - by employers, insurers and the government. As a result, costs have exploded as choices have narrowed"
- Regina Herzlinger, Harvard Business Review, 2002

Big brother speaks out in defense of universal health care
.
"I think we have to be very careful about empowering the consumer because they will make choices that are not in their own health interest" - Jonathan Lomas, Executive Director and government lackey, Canadian Health Services Research Foundation (a $100 million plus tax supported non profit agency, that is unaccountable to the public)


Why is it Americans faced with all the evidence of government corruption and incompetence every day, recall Louisiana levees, Iraq war, Paulson, Mayor Daley, would 'we the people' ever consider letting these charlatans and mountebanks, thieves and liers, to be in charge of deciding for your children and your elderly parents what forms of treatment are acceptable for your family?
All I can say to those enamored by the sweet sales pitches of hucksters and confidence men in congress, it is time to wake up, before you don't in a hospital bed!
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