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Old 06-22-2009, 12:43 PM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,917,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
They are "being forced" to wear the burqa. Precisely because their "will" has been perverted to acquiesce in their own debasement. The so-called "choice" is not a "choice" at all.
That is not being forced. You know, I know it. They are being influenced. Freedom to choose begins and stops with the individual. You are however using assumptive premises in order to "force" your opinion on others. That is acceptable for you though right? I mean you consider yourself correct, just ask you.
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:56 PM
 
8,185 posts, read 12,609,601 times
Reputation: 2893
Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieFin View Post
and lo and behold:



I knew it. Sorry, but Arabs and Jews are both Semitic peoples, and it's obnoxious for Jews to think they are better than their Arab cousins.....which is what Sarky is doing. He's a supremacist, basically.

I'm sorry you can't see the obvious.

The French would be better off without either Semite group, that's obvious.
Hey naziboy this is about cultural assimiliation not about 'them jews' (a phrase that I know must strike fear into your heart )

In Europe there is very little cultural difference between those that practice a christian faith, a jewish faith or no faith at all.

The reason for that would be that they are all Europeans.

Except of course for the nazis who are buried and rotting - just like that infantile ideology.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:02 PM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,917,037 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
The use of 'big words' does not lend your arguement more credibility. If anything it does the opposite.
First, that is not a big word. It is a rather small word, a simplistic word. In fact, it is a word that was taught to me in high school and it is a word you must learn if you are to pass any college education. Its a freshman class subject, its called logic and it is taught as a requirement. It is also directly applicable because you keep using invalid arguments to support your position.

A Logical Fallacy is a fallacy in logical argumentation. It is an error in reasoning. You have errors in your reasoning leading to false conclusions.



Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Lets look at some facts.
The people who would be effected by this ban chose to live in France. If they choose to live in a country that has different cultural mores then they do, then they also chose to abide by the prevailing cultural mores of their new country.
Then you argue that France does not support individual freedoms. You argue a majority rule on freedoms. The majority dictates freedoms to the minorities. Very well, but don't get angry when the majority determines you to be invalid. Remember, you support this ideal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
For example, if I were to move to Iran I would be agreeing to wear the chador as that is the practice there - though it should be noted, that this is a recent practice. As is wearing the burqa. Did you know that wearing the burqa was customary only for rural women when they went to the 'big city'? It was not something that even all rural women had to do. Back then -- 1980s -- it really was a choice. Now it is a choice to wear the burqa or get beaten or killed. Hardly a choice, imo.
So women are being beaten for not wearing a burqa in France? So you are supporting that women be banned from wearing them? You support women being beaten and killed? That is terrible!

See the problem with using invalid support to form a conclusion? It leads to false understanding, a misrepresentation of the issues. You misrepresent the issue by claiming all women who wear them are wearing them by force of harm. You make an assumption, you generalize to assume the whole. Your argument is invalid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
No. If France has determined that it is in the best interest for the nation and its newer immigrants to ban cultural practices that are inconsistant with a harmonious citizenry then so be it.
After all -- the immigrants themselves had the ultimate choice to make -- and they choose to live in France.
Yeah, another country did the same. They got rid of those dirty jews because it was "inconsistant with a harmonious citizenry". I didn't know that you prescribed to Hitlers idealology?

We are not talking about practical assimilation. Language requirements exist due to practicality. That is, if the immigrant doesn't learn the language, they become a weight on society. This is not an issue of practical assimilation, but one of ethnocentric condemnation. Not surprising though, the French always were a bit arrogant. /shrug

Last edited by Nomander; 06-22-2009 at 01:12 PM..
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:03 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,254,477 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
So you believe that not all cultures are equally valid? That their society is better or worse according to your position. Can you point me to that list so I can look up cultures who paint their houses bright colors so I can show them evidence of how they are beneath me? Thanks.

Seriously though, you argue a subjective position. You attempt to insert a moralistic position on it, but your moralistic position is biased. That is, you think them wearing clothing as such is demeaning so you make an ethnocentric judgement. Do you also think women in western religous cultures that wear full dresses also demaning?




So are they forced or are they not forced? Which is it? You can't be going left and right at the same time. Make up your mind. As I stated, in a previous posting, if they are forced against their free will, that is they choose not to wear them and are forced to do so, then you have a violation of individual freedom. So, It would be acceptable to deal with those cases as such. It also falls to the responsibilty of the family in question.

This isn't an issue of this topic though. The article specifically states a personal subjective opinoin on the wearing of them. It does not state they are forced, it states that those who dislike them believe them to be demeaning. You dislike them, get over it. Your opinoin is worthless when it comes to subjective views. It is only valid to you and those who are willing to accept its merit. Outside of that, if someone disagrees with that subjective view, then you are out of luck. Insisting people conform to your subjective view means you disregard individual choice. So which is it? You support freedom of choice or you support your oppinion to dictate freedom of choice? Can't have it both ways. Pick.




Logical fallacy (unsupported corelation, red herring)

Let me show you the invalid logic you are using.

P1. Some women who wear burqas have been abused.
P2. Jill wears a burqa.
C. Jill has been abused.

It is invalid. You attempt to conclude based on an association that does not support the conclusion.

As for the red herring, the result of my answer is irrevant to the argument. Stay on topic please.




Compromised? Look at the picture in the article. Perepherial vision is at its max capability. Motorcyle helments obscure more vision than such. Also, I notice you only support the ban of this, not a wide array of garments which are the same or worse.

This support is a grasping at straws in order to embolden a subjective personal opinoin on a topic. Your claim is unsubstanited and poorly supported.
First, your example of my supposed "logical fallacy" is inaccurate, primarily because it doesn't reflect the logic of my position.

Yes, of course they are "forced." Apparently, your understanding of "force" is a literal and immutable one.

Third, yes, I believe all cultures are not equally valid. As does Aayan Hirsi Ali, who was sexually mutilated as a child. Cultural relativism is puerile.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali Infidel. - Free Online Library

Nobody's "grasping at straws" here except for you.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:07 PM
 
Location: here.
1,359 posts, read 2,287,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsldcd View Post
All immigrants need to assimilate to the countries they move to our go back to the place they came from. Do you think any muslim country would not demand you assimilate to their culture?
never been to Dubai i am guessing? its in a muslim county (its a official religion of the state) and i've seen American/European women dress as they would at home.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:11 PM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,917,037 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingForward View Post
First, your example of my supposed "logical fallacy" is inaccurate, primarily because it doesn't reflect the logic of my position.

Yes, of course they are "forced." Apparently, your understanding of "force" is a literal and immutable one.

Third, yes, I believe all cultures are not equally valid. As does Aayan Hirsi Ali, who was sexually mutilated as a child. Cultural relativism is puerile.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali Infidel. - Free Online Library

Nobody's "grasping at straws" here except for you.
I can only use your own words. Your arguments are invalid because they are established as you placed them. The fact that you can not properly establish your position is not a problem of mine, but a lack of ability on your part.

You use force subjectively to assume. Your argument is a text book example of a logical fallacy. The error is in your reasoning. Your reasoning is producing invalid conclusions.

I don't think you have thought your position through. Spend some more time going over it and then try again. It has holes and either you recognize them and strengthen it or you will hold to an emotionally invalid position. There is nothing more to go over with you until you repair your errors in reasoning.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:18 PM
 
Location: The D-M-V area
13,691 posts, read 18,382,796 times
Reputation: 9595
I think he is absolutely correct in banning this garment in public.

When people migrate to nations outside of the land they were born in and want to live their lives exactly as they did where they came from it is wrong.

You don't move to a foreign country and refuse to adopt the common culture of the land you are migrating to. It takes a lot of hubris for an individual to move to France (or any other nation for that matter) and expect your host nation to allow you to bring your culture with you and force that host nation to accept with open arms something that is 100% opposite to their culture in language, religion, music, cultural traditions. It's wrong.

With 5 million Muslims in France it won't be long before French culture is surpassed by an Islamic one. There's no reason for France to allow people from other nations to come and set up home there and slowly squeeze out French culture where they live. It's like what is happening in the USA with the illegal immigration issue. It's exactly the same thing.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:21 PM
 
8,185 posts, read 12,609,601 times
Reputation: 2893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
First, that is not a big word. It is a rather small word, a simplistic word. In fact, it is a word that was taught to mean in high school and it is a word you must learn if you are to pass any college education. Its a freshman class subject, its called logic and it is taught as a requirement. It is also directly applicable because you keep using invalid arguments to support your position.

A Logical Fallacy is a fallacy in logical argumentation. It is an error in reasoning. You have errors in your reasoning leading to false conclusions.





Then you argue that France does not support individual freedoms. You argue a majority rule on freedoms. The majority dictates freedoms to the minorities. Very well, but don't get angry when the majority determines you to be invalid. Remember, you support this ideal.




So women are being beaten for not wearing a burqa in France? So you are supporting that women be banned from wearing them? You support women being beaten and killed? That is terrible!

See the problem with using invalid support to form a conclusion? It leads to false understanding, a misrepresentation of the issues. You misrepresent the issue by claiming all women who wear them are wearing them by force of harm. You make an assumption, you generalize to assume the whole. Your argument is invalid.



Yeah, another country did the same. They got rid of those dirty jews because it was "inconsistant with a harmonious citizenry". I didn't know that you prescribed to Hitlers idealology?

We are not talking about practical assimilation. Language requirements exist due to practicality. That is, if the immigrant doesn't learn the language, they become a weight on society. This is not an issue of practical assimilation, but one of ethnocentric condemnation. Not surprising though, the French always were a bit arrogant. /shrug

You want to play cultural relativism. Good for you. I'm sure that makes you feel like a citizen of the world and all that jazz.

I prefer to listen to the women who have lived that life. I suggest you do the same.
"Instead of debating Islam, we should be debating culture and its impact," she burst out at a microphone during a discussion after one of the sessions. "Culture is so conservative in some tribal areas. Women can't move around; they can't work. There are a lot of social taboos and tribal traditions that oppress women and they have little to do with Islam."
Women's eNews - Muslim Feminists Confront a World of Obstacles

The Global Campaign to Stop Killing and Stoning Women! was launched in November 2007 and is hosted by Women Living Under Muslim Laws. The Campaign seeks to end the relentless mis-use of culture, tradition and religion to justify violence against women.
Women Living Under Muslim Laws


I'm sure they would be thrilled to know how enlightened - how tolerant you are of their abuse.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:22 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,254,477 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
I can only use your own words. Your arguments are invalid because they are established as you placed them. The fact that you can not properly establish your position is not a problem of mine, but a lack of ability on your part.

You use force subjectively to assume. Your argument is a text book example of a logical fallacy. The error is in your reasoning. Your reasoning is producing invalid conclusions.

I don't think you have thought your position through. Spend some more time going over it and then try again. It has holes and either you recognize them and strengthen it or you will hold to an emotionally invalid position. There is nothing more to go over with you until you repair your errors in reasoning.

This post makes absolutely no sense.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:22 PM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,917,037 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyGem View Post
I think he is absolutely correct in banning this garment in public.

When people migrate to nations outside of the land they were born in and want to live their lives exactly as they did where they came from it is wrong.

You don't move to a foreign country and refuse to adopt the common culture of the land you are migrating to. It takes a lot of hubris for an individual to move to France (or any other nation for that matter) and expect your host nation to allow you to bring your culture with you and force that host nation to accept with open arms something that is 100% opposite to their culture in language, religion, music, cultural traditions. It's wrong.
So what is the french cultural dress code? A thong?
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