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so you wish to bring down an islamic ran country but allow an jewish country to be ran?
5. puppet goverment
6.turkey has always been outspoken about islam being mixed with their politics. this has nothing to do with bush they always wanted secular but nonetheless they still have islam as a religion, comprehend.
1.the USA IS STILL IN IRAQ, what is a democracy, why arent we in saudi arabia when was the last time they had elections?
2. seeiung that this iscoming from a perspective from an american it has nothing to do with war on terror. lol
"so you wish to bring down an islamic ran country but allow an jewish country to be ran?" How can you compare the 2? Have you ever seen jewish woman who have to hide their face or body behind fabric so only their eyes are shown...Do Jewish woman have to walk behind their husband and have nothing to say...no way. Even very riligious Jewish woman can live like any one else but choose to wear a wig outside their house and cover their arms...but not almost their whole body, on top of that they are free to speak their mind not like Muslim woman. So to compare these 2 is like comparing an apple with a comuter....not even an apple and a pear.
It seems like the OP is pro-Imperialism on the condition that it is "successful" (however one defines that).
I don't think I can offer evidence, other than to refer you to the archives of different forums I've participated in over the years. I'm sure the owners of this site wouldn't much care for me posting links to other forums, so I'm not inclined to do so.
So, I suppose you'll either have to take my word for it, or consider me either a troll or a plant. Those who know me could readily report that I was a persistant critic of the previous adminstration and considered them not far removed from tyrannts. But, I won't offer my friends names and addresses either.
And, no, I'm not now, nor have I ever been, "pro-Imperialism." Far from it.
Last edited by stillkit; 06-22-2009 at 07:54 PM..
Reason: additional thoughts
It just galls me to no end to say this, but the Bush strategy for winning the mis-named War on Terror may have been right all along.
I've been among those who have not only doubted the efficacy of installing democracies in the Middle East as a strategy for containing radical Islam, I've taken the previous administration to task many times for their miscalculations and lack of planning.
Now, however, a clear, critical look at the region reveals some interesting facts:
1. There really are functioning democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan, though the jury is still out on where that will ultimately end up.
2. Lebanon held an election and did NOT install Hizbollah as the dominant party in their government.
3. The tide of Islam seems to be receding in domestic Turkish politics.
4. Iran is in turmoil, with the mullah's in Tehran clinging to power by the barrel of a gun.
5. The military dicatorship of Musharaff in Pakistan is over and he's been replaced by a democratically elected government which is going after the Taliban and al Queda with a vengence.
I never believed in the idea of democracy by osmosis. It seemed far fetched to think that a couple of fledgling democracies in the region could sort of "spill over" to other countries, but that's exactly what appears to be happening.
Yes, it's difficult, if not downright impossible, to establish a clear quid pro quo, and the outcome is in doubt, but the fact remains that democracy is breaking out all over the place there, especially in Iran, which I thought would be the major winner from our excursion into Iraq.
I could be wrong. If the the current unrest brings down the Islamic Republic, I'll have to tip my hat to the Bush administration.
History will be kind to George Bush. I can say this with experience: Two tours in Iraq enabled me to see the gratitude of the Iraqi people on a daily basis. That country will continue to flourish and it will be contagious.
Just because Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews tell you Iraq was a bad idea doesn't mean you should believe it.
To the OP, hopefully other's will see the light as you seem to have.
I don't think I can offer evidence, other than to refer you to the archives of different forums I've participated in over the years. I'm sure the owners of this site wouldn't much care for me posting links to other forums, so I'm not inclined to do so.
So, I suppose you'll either have to take my word for it, or consider me either a troll or a plant. Those who know me could readily report that I was a persistant critic of the previous adminstration and considered them not far removed from tyrannts. But, I won't offer my friends names and addresses either.
And, no, I'm not now, nor have I ever been, "pro-Imperialism." Far from it.
Then you should probably explain why you think "Bush was right". The effects of what is happening in the middle east (and your perception of the success of these actions) are due to imperialist activity, so I think some clarification on that point would be fair.
Then you should probably explain why you think "Bush was right". The effects of what is happening in the middle east (and your perception of the success of these actions) are due to imperialist activity, so I think some clarification on that point would be fair.
I thought I explained that in the original post. Democracy IS breaking out in different places around the region and that seems to validate the Bush strategy. Yes, I know those democracies are fledgling and imperfect, but they're still there, aren't they? And they weren't there in 2001.
No, I'm not ready to join the Bush fan club by any means, but I believe in giving credit where credit is due. I'm not about to rush out and join the Neo-Con wing of the Republican Party or embrace the dominionist Evangelicals, but it appears that in this one, particular regard, the previous administration may have been right on track, in spite of everything else they did which I abhor. I STILL think that administration was the closest thing to facism that we've seen in generations (if ever) and still support President Obama's efforts to overturn much of what they did, including his apparent strategy to break the ties which bind global corporations, big banks and our government.
And, I don't buy the imperialism argument, so I don't feel the need to "defend" it or to refute it. It's a non-issue to me, one which has nothing to do with my original post.
Additionally, I don't buy the rightest argument that it's an either or proposition. Just because I now think the Bush strategy may have been right, does not mean I think the Obama strategy is wrong. In fact, I think the new Obama foreign policy is perfectly positioned to take full advantage of the successes of the Bush policies because it's based upon mutual relations between us and those new democracies. In other words, it represents a return to diplomatic normalcy at a time when normalcy is becoming increasingly possible.
That will be particularly true if the mullah's in Tehran lose their grip on power. What better way forward than to engage them, one on one, rather than continue to rattle our empty sabres at them?
and last month you wanted to bomb them....how convenient
Please explain you remark?
Lately there has been so many new images and reports coming out of Iran and have showed a different side. Obama wanted to sit down with Iran without conditions....that is sitting and talking to people who declared winning the elctions 2 hours after the voting was closed..
Many others are seen now that they want a new regime, but we still don't know how they thik about Israel' existing, etc. If the people fighting for more freedom will exept other countries existing, than I have no issue with them if they have the same believes as the leaders right now, than it is still scary but as far as I have seen there are thousands who want change. Maybe they are open for discussion with other countries as well.
We see what this regime stands for and it is a very dangerous regime and can't be trusted and if they have nuclear weapens and we know what the want, which is Israel off the map...so you can't sit and do nothing.
Hopefully Obama will step up since right now England and France are showing more strength and power han our president. He is showing his true colors and probable doesn't want to upset the muslim world...We have seen his associations during the campaign and he was smart enough to have many people believe he wasn't what was shown, although almost as many people didn't believe him than and now.
Thanks for all people serving this country and helping Iraqi's get freedom and although Obermann and Matthews and Maddow want to bash Bush whenever they can...they have such a weak arguments and their ratings are showing who the public is believing
I would prefer to become friends with other nations and to encourage their governments to become actual Republics instead of dictatorships. I prefer this be done with open communications and trade and not with raw force. Frightening people does gain you any respect and does increase the number of your enemies. It also gets a lot of innocent people killed.
I think the development of democratic Republics in the Middle East as well as the rest of the world is a result of the success of the system in Europe and North America and not the result of our invasions. We invaded Iraq to control the development of their oil (initially to pump them dry and later to support the OPEC oligopoly). I still am not certain why we are messing with Afghanistan except as a practice exercise for the capture of the oil reserves around the Caspian Sea. One of the “side” effects of our removal of the Taliban from Afghanistan has been the restoration of the international opium trade.
So our invasion of Iraq removed a brutal dictator we installed and our invasion of Afghanistan restored the opium trade. The Pakistani’s also murdered the first president after Musharraf. So much for democracy.
As far as the little militarized state of Israel is concerned I expect they will use the bomb before any one else starts that fight. Then they will expect us to be a "big brother" and help them with the fight they started. I sincerely hope we do not. I have nothing for or against Jews but I have little use for Zionism and less for Zionist colonial expansion.
Last edited by GregW; 06-23-2009 at 05:34 AM..
Reason: comment on Israel
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