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Old 06-23-2009, 09:59 PM
 
21,026 posts, read 22,190,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ergohead View Post
If they don't have socialist bosses, they are protected by their merit.
Wha!!!! LOL! LOL!!!!


In WHAT world?????
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:05 PM
 
305 posts, read 540,122 times
Reputation: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefinalsay View Post
all the best schools are private.
Why, because you say so?

Students at the parochial high school in our city come to our public school to take AP courses that their school doesn't offer. Since they live within our district, in our state that's permissible, and it's the right thing to do.
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:11 PM
LML
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,100 posts, read 9,126,258 times
Reputation: 5191
I find it astonishing that people don't seem to realize that the biggest reason that private schools appear more successful than public schools is that private schools do NOT have to accept OR keep every student that wants to attend. Private schools, by and large, take the students whose parents are involved with their child's education and who can afford all the extras that add to the educational experience. Public schools get some of those too but they also get the kids whose parents often don't bother to get the kid to school in the morning let alone make sure that they study at night. They get the kid who has been kept up half the night babysitting for younger siblings while the parent either works or parties. They get the kids who are learning disabled, the kids who speak little if any English, the kid who has drug addicted parents, the kid who hasn't had anything solid to eat in days, the kid who is wearing Salvation Army handouts, homeless kids who go back to a shelter after school, etc. etc. If people really knew the often heartbreaking problems that public school teachers see and hear every week, the hours they spend trying to find ways to teach kids at so many different levels of learning ability, the money that they spend out of their own pockets buying classroom supplies that budget cuts have eliminated, they might have a lot more appreciation for teachers.
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:13 PM
 
Location: I currently exist only in a state of mind. one too complex for geographic location.
4,196 posts, read 5,852,757 times
Reputation: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBoughton View Post
Why, because you say so?

Students at the parochial high school in our city come to our public school to take AP courses that their school doesn't offer. Since they live within our district, in our state that's permissible, and it's the right thing to do.
um, harvard, yale, brown, princeton, dartmouth, shall I go on?
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:44 AM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,224,590 times
Reputation: 6195
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefinalsay View Post
all the best schools are private.
by "best," what do you mean? best facilities? best feeder opportunity? best curricula?

a kid can do well or badly in either one.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:09 AM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,224,590 times
Reputation: 6195
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Not really vague. Most of us in the private sector understand it quite well.
Example: Mr. Johnson who has tenure consistantly has students who have the lowest test scores in the school. Same mix as his counterparts. He is protected by tenure.
Private sector. Parents will opt for another school rather than deal with such a teacher, private sector would fire Mr. Johnson.
I understand what "accountability" means. It was the vague generalization "Public schools enjoy poor accountability" that I asked you to clarify. Which you didnt do. You seem to be saying it's harder to fire a bad, tenured teacher. Why not just try working out the problem, and at worst switch classes and not stress the student more than he's already stressed?

The Mr. Johnson example - we could argue that Mr. Johnson is more challenging than his colleagues - is the only good teacher, with lazy/bad students. You're saying a teacher should be fired for giving poor grades....?

You're wrong on both counts re public and private.

Private: parents chose the private school deliberately; they have a financial stake in the private school; it's very difficult to pull out of private school one and start up again in private school two. They'd just work with the teacher/principal/counselor/student, or at worst switch the kid's class.

Something else about the allurement of private schools: the school also has a stake in the child not failing: the income the child represents. Thus parents can slack off in their own interest/vigilance. In a public school parents have to be more involved, in a private school not so much.

Public: the exact same, though requires commitment to the kid's education rather than financial commitment. The kid could learn a good lesson from participating in working out the problem with Mr. Johnson, or at the worst switch classes.

PS - not at all saying bad teachers dont exist or shouldnt be fired -Ive dealt with some not only stupid but rotten ones -- dangerous ones. But the important thing is the student's well-being.

Last edited by delusianne; 06-24-2009 at 05:13 AM..
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:12 AM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,224,590 times
Reputation: 6195
The voucher system seems to me this way: please take this apart and show me where Im wrong, because I'd like very much to understand.

Voucher proponent parents dont want to pay full fee for their child to attend the local private school (or their child cant get a scholarship or they earn too much for financial aid; whatever reason, full fee). They dont like the local public school. There's no area magnet school (or cant get in or whatever, magnet school not an option). So they try to force their way in to the private school for free or for cheap. They lower their own property values by abandoning the public school. The private school becomes degraded by an influx of mediocre students. Private school teachers leave, the public school founders. If this is the way it is I just dont see the benefit for anyone.

I know it's a money issue. The parents make too much to qualify for financial aid at the private school, and they dont want to pay full fee, and they dont want to pay taxes for the public school if their children dont attend it. Is it that the voucher parents would NOT pay taxes to the public school, would transfer that money instead to the private school? Does the voucher student still have to meet the private school's academic requirements for admission?

Show me what Im not seeing.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:49 AM
 
Location: St. Joseph Area
6,233 posts, read 9,496,218 times
Reputation: 3133
Quote:
Originally posted by LML
I find it astonishing that people don't seem to realize that the biggest reason that private schools appear more successful than public schools is that private schools do NOT have to accept OR keep every student that wants to attend. Private schools, by and large, take the students whose parents are involved with their child's education and who can afford all the extras that add to the educational experience. Public schools get some of those too but they also get the kids whose parents often don't bother to get the kid to school in the morning let alone make sure that they study at night. They get the kid who has been kept up half the night babysitting for younger siblings while the parent either works or parties. They get the kids who are learning disabled, the kids who speak little if any English, the kid who has drug addicted parents, the kid who hasn't had anything solid to eat in days, the kid who is wearing Salvation Army handouts, homeless kids who go back to a shelter after school, etc. etc. If people really knew the often heartbreaking problems that public school teachers see and hear every week, the hours they spend trying to find ways to teach kids at so many different levels of learning ability, the money that they spend out of their own pockets buying classroom supplies that budget cuts have eliminated, they might have a lot more appreciation for teachers.
This is so, so true LML. I'm starting my first job in North Carolina this fall in an impoverished district and my principal has already told me some heartbreaking stories about students' families. At a public school we can't turn them away, so of course these kids will drag down test scores and performance. But that's all the more reason to be there, to give them a decent education so they can break the generations old cycle of poverty and disfunction. I love my students as if they were my own kids. That's part of why I wanted to be a teacher.
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Old 06-24-2009, 05:07 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 59,897,847 times
Reputation: 24863
The principal function of public schools is to provide a good education to children of ALL backgrounds and ability. The principal function of private education from kindergarten to advanced graduate schools is to keep the economic and social classes separate less the children of the wealthy bring home underclass potential spouses. Private schooling is a mixture of social separation and eugenics.

As I consider an ideal society provides equal opportunity for all citizens’ regardless of their parent’s wealth or social status I believe all private schools should be open to enrollment by all students or simply turned into public schooling. I believe in an egalitarian meritocracy is an ideal human society and polity.

I support public school unions because with out the union public schools would be even less effective and the teachers a women’s slave class ghetto. In one word:

Solidarnosh!!!
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
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Old 06-24-2009, 05:17 AM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes FL and NH.
4,546 posts, read 6,826,752 times
Reputation: 5990
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
The fact that private schools will fire a poor performing teacher because they are a business that will fail if its teachers don't deliver .
Not necessarily the case. Many private schools pay their teachers peanuts and are over-dependent on second-income earners. The biggest advantage private schools have is controlling who they admit. It is much easier to teach a class of students who are expected to get the most from their education by their parents than it is to teach a group of students whose parents may see little value in education or actually have hostility toward school in general.
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