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Old 06-24-2009, 05:58 AM
 
1,902 posts, read 2,473,276 times
Reputation: 543

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Quote:
Originally Posted by delusianne View Post
Lol. What makes you think you think a private school is going to give a better education, just because it's private?

Are you looking for a guaranteed feeder school?

Or is it that you just dont want to pay school taxes?

What do you think is going to happen to the kids who *dont* transfer to private schools, who are left behind in unfunded schools? Or, let me put it in a way you might understand better: what do you think will happen to your PROPERTY VALUES if you allow your local public schools to fail, rather than fighting for them to succeed?

Crimewise, what will become of your town/neighborhood -- and consider your own personal safety, let alone your property values -- if you let your public schools fail?

P.S.: As a cruel fact of nature, private schools accessed by public school kids via voucher are going to cease their roles as feeder schools, sooner rather than later.
It's true that not all private schools are great, but why would you spend your money to send your kid to a school that is no better than the government school? If the private school is not performing, they go out of business, as should the government school that is not performing. The difference is with a private school people have a choice, with the government school, the only choice is to move to a better school district. I would rather see our tax dollars go with the student, then even gubmint schools would have to compete on their performance and we would see improvements. That would help that don't go to private schools and to what you bring up, increase property values in areas that now have failing school systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Who?Me?! View Post
Wha!!!! LOL! LOL!!!!


In WHAT world?????
The real world where a union is not there to force employers to compensate employees more than they are worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
I find it astonishing that people don't seem to realize that the biggest reason that private schools appear more successful than public schools is that private schools do NOT have to accept OR keep every student that wants to attend. Private schools, by and large, take the students whose parents are involved with their child's education and who can afford all the extras that add to the educational experience. Public schools get some of those too but they also get the kids whose parents often don't bother to get the kid to school in the morning let alone make sure that they study at night. They get the kid who has been kept up half the night babysitting for younger siblings while the parent either works or parties. They get the kids who are learning disabled, the kids who speak little if any English, the kid who has drug addicted parents, the kid who hasn't had anything solid to eat in days, the kid who is wearing Salvation Army handouts, homeless kids who go back to a shelter after school, etc. etc. If people really knew the often heartbreaking problems that public school teachers see and hear every week, the hours they spend trying to find ways to teach kids at so many different levels of learning ability, the money that they spend out of their own pockets buying classroom supplies that budget cuts have eliminated, they might have a lot more appreciation for teachers.
There is much truth in what you say. Too bad most parents do not have the choice to put their kids who want to learn in a school better suited. They suffer because the system allows it.
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Old 06-24-2009, 06:32 AM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,230,283 times
Reputation: 6195
Quote:
Originally Posted by coastalrap View Post
It's true that not all private schools are great, but why would you spend your money to send your kid to a school that is no better than the government school? If the private school is not performing, they go out of business, as should the government school that is not performing. The difference is with a private school people have a choice, with the government school, the only choice is to move to a better school district.
("government school," is that the trendy expression these days? )

I see what you're saying up to right about here --
I would rather see our tax dollars go with the student, then even gubmint schools would have to compete on their performance and we would see improvements. That would help that don't go to private schools and to what you bring up, increase property values in areas that now have failing school systems.
A large public school cant compete with a small, selective private school. Please see macinac81's post a couple of pages back.

What do you propose to do with those children?

The only way a public school could compete with a decent college prep program would be to change the curriculum and shrink the classrooms and the (class groups, not sure what you call them). Public HSes already have AP classes and students have access to college classes, tutors, etc. There are magnet schools for kids who qualify. (Is the voucher program for kids who cant get into magnet schools, but whose parents dont want them mixing with public school riff raff -- although they refuse to pay to send their kids to a private school?)

These things can and should be done for all public schools from kindergarten on, without mediocritizing the private school. Why not invest in that?

The last sentence in the part of your post I quoted has no basis in reality, and is irresponsible and cruel.

What is it you want from a private school, anyway?

I think this school voucher business is some version of the old "white flight." I think it's a short-term, small minded bugaboo about taxes that would not only destroy the public schools and the neighborhoods around them but would ruin the private schools too -- ruin them quicker in fact.
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Old 06-24-2009, 06:34 AM
 
Location: S.E. US
13,163 posts, read 1,732,497 times
Reputation: 5134
It's evident that some of you don't understand private schools, or the voucher issue.

Voucher is NOT a means to get education for "cheap" as someone stated. That is an uninformed, skewed view. Vouchers offset the taxes that parents continue to pay for public schools when their kids are in private schools. It's really a tax credit in a sense.

There is nothing "exclusive" about private schools. Teachers are often underpaid, but very committed to the job esp. in Christian Schools. Education is better. Discipline is better. Values are actually taught. My experience. Your experience may be different.

A voucher program would create more competition for our public schools. They are afraid that they'd be left with no students...well...that means they have to try harder to deliver, don't they. Competition makes everyone better, and weeds out the mediocre ones. What's wrong with that.
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Old 06-24-2009, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Martinsville, NJ
6,175 posts, read 12,964,404 times
Reputation: 4020
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefinalsay View Post
this is pathetic. these teachers should be thrown out on the street and stripped of their retirement funds.
Well, no, that would be incorrect. They are in those rooms waiting for hearings on disciplinary actions. Some of them contend they didn't do that of which they are accused. Others admit what they did, but it certainly doesn't warrant being "thrown out on the street and stripped of their retirement fnds". Like the teacher who is accused of pushing a child while breaking up a fight. Or the teacher who is there becasue she used abusive language after a girl cut her with a scissor. Trust me, you cut me with scissors, I'm going to call you a few choice names too, and I don't deserve to lose my job over it.

Clearly though, the system needs to be changed. The contract in place says that these teachers can't be allowed to teach while awaiting hearings, can't be refused their pay, and can't be assigned other work. How moronic is this. And it's costing NYC $65 million per year. And teachers rot, some for YEARS, awaiting hearings. An overhaul is desperately needed, and job protection contracts like this need to be fixed.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:01 AM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,230,283 times
Reputation: 6195
Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
It's evident that some of you don't understand private schools, or the voucher issue.

Voucher is NOT a means to get education for "cheap" as someone stated. That is an uninformed, skewed view. Vouchers offset the taxes that parents continue to pay for public schools when their kids are in private schools. It's really a tax credit in a sense.

There is nothing "exclusive" about private schools. Teachers are often underpaid, but very committed to the job esp. in Christian Schools. Education is better. Discipline is better. Values are actually taught. My experience. Your experience may be different.

A voucher program would create more competition for our public schools. They are afraid that they'd be left with no students...well...that means they have to try harder to deliver, don't they. Competition makes everyone better, and weeds out the mediocre ones. What's wrong with that.
I asked in an earlier post for soemone to explain the rationale behind the voucher movement, I'll go with your explanation.

A voucher would give parents a discount on their private school fee? This is for parents who make too much to qualify for financial aid from the school, and whose kids cant get a scholarship there?

Do voucher kids have to qualify academically to be admitted to the private school? If so, why not just apply for scholarships, or attend a magnet school? If not, that will absolutely bring down the quality of the private school, dont kid yourself. Teachers as well as families will flee.

"Nothing exclusive about private schools" -- all I can say is lol.

"Education is better. Discipline is better. Values are actually taught." By "better," what do you mean? "Education is better," do you mean a more advanced curric is taught? That can be done in public schools. Why is discipline better? Because the children have smaller classes, and a calmer home life maybe? "Values are actually taught" - this can also be instilled by public schools; the answer there I think is the same as for discipline.

Your last paragraph -- exact same shrugging cop out as the one from the other pro-voucher person posting above. It reveals the true selfishness and cruelty behind the voucher movement -- just the kind of mindset that Christian schools and academically excellent schools, private or public, cannot help.

All I can say is wow. Hope you dont meet some of those kids that you all so cant wait to abandon in a dark alley, some day that you've dared to venture out from your gated community. (Oh, but you have guns in the car for just such an eventuality, right? )
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Martinsville, NJ
6,175 posts, read 12,964,404 times
Reputation: 4020
Quote:
Originally Posted by delusianne View Post
The voucher system seems to me this way: please take this apart and show me where Im wrong, because I'd like very much to understand.

Voucher proponent parents dont want to pay full fee for their child to attend the local private school (or their child cant get a scholarship or they earn too much for financial aid; whatever reason, full fee). They dont like the local public school. There's no area magnet school (or cant get in or whatever, magnet school not an option). So they try to force their way in to the private school for free or for cheap. They lower their own property values by abandoning the public school. The private school becomes degraded by an influx of mediocre students. Private school teachers leave, the public school founders. If this is the way it is I just dont see the benefit for anyone.

I know it's a money issue. The parents make too much to qualify for financial aid at the private school, and they dont want to pay full fee, and they dont want to pay taxes for the public school if their children dont attend it. Is it that the voucher parents would NOT pay taxes to the public school, would transfer that money instead to the private school? Does the voucher student still have to meet the private school's academic requirements for admission?

Show me what Im not seeing.
Why would the private school founder? They still have the right to be selective, to refuse any student who does not meet certain expectations. That is a luxury that public schools do not enjoy, but having a voucher system in place doesn't change that. Why would you think that the voucher student has any difference in standard or expectation than any other?
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:07 AM
LML
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,100 posts, read 9,127,541 times
Reputation: 5191
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
This is so, so true LML. I'm starting my first job in North Carolina this fall in an impoverished district and my principal has already told me some heartbreaking stories about students' families. At a public school we can't turn them away, so of course these kids will drag down test scores and performance. But that's all the more reason to be there, to give them a decent education so they can break the generations old cycle of poverty and disfunction. I love my students as if they were my own kids. That's part of why I wanted to be a teacher.
And it is because of teachers such as you that millions of kids DO make it out of poverty and into a good future. Thank you.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:21 AM
 
Location: South Fla
9,644 posts, read 9,865,518 times
Reputation: 1942
Yet the citizens are getting a tax increase.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:29 AM
 
21,026 posts, read 22,193,293 times
Reputation: 5941
Quote:
Originally Posted by coastalrap View Post
It's true that not all private schools are great, but why would you spend your money to send your kid to a school that is no better than the government school? If the private school is not performing, they go out of business, as should the government school that is not performing. The difference is with a private school people have a choice, with the government school, the only choice is to move to a better school district. I would rather see our tax dollars go with the student, then even gubmint schools would have to compete on their performance and we would see improvements. That would help that don't go to private schools and to what you bring up, increase property values in areas that now have failing school systems.



The real world where a union is not there to force employers to compensate employees more than they are worth.



There is much truth in what you say. Too bad most parents do not have the choice to put their kids who want to learn in a school better suited. They suffer because the system allows it.
""""The real world where a union is not there to force employers to compensate employees more than they are worth.""""


I live in the real world where employers can knock everyone down to minimum wage if they feel like it, take away shift premiums, take away earned PTO, not give raises where they're due, promote/protect their friends, subtly/not so subtly harrass employees, add unreasonable tasks to employees stated job description, cut break times, add hours with no overtime,etc.


And don't give me that "they can just get another job" BS!

A. There aren't any.

B. Moving costs money.

C. If all employers can do this where ya gonna go?

D. You loose Health care Insurance.

E. Spouse may not be able to move/change jobs.

F. Children disrupted in the school year.



Employers who treat workers fairly, humanely, with an eye to paying them enough to LIVE on so they can contribute to our economy which helps it thrive don't have to worry about unions.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:58 AM
 
1,902 posts, read 2,473,276 times
Reputation: 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by delusianne View Post
("government school," is that the trendy expression these days? )

I see what you're saying up to right about here --
I would rather see our tax dollars go with the student, then even gubmint schools would have to compete on their performance and we would see improvements. That would help that don't go to private schools and to what you bring up, increase property values in areas that now have failing school systems.
A large public school cant compete with a small, selective private school. Please see macinac81's post a couple of pages back.

What do you propose to do with those children?

The only way a public school could compete with a decent college prep program would be to change the curriculum and shrink the classrooms and the (class groups, not sure what you call them). Public HSes already have AP classes and students have access to college classes, tutors, etc. There are magnet schools for kids who qualify. (Is the voucher program for kids who cant get into magnet schools, but whose parents dont want them mixing with public school riff raff -- although they refuse to pay to send their kids to a private school?)

These things can and should be done for all public schools from kindergarten on, without mediocritizing the private school. Why not invest in that?

The last sentence in the part of your post I quoted has no basis in reality, and is irresponsible and cruel.

What is it you want from a private school, anyway?

I think this school voucher business is some version of the old "white flight." I think it's a short-term, small minded bugaboo about taxes that would not only destroy the public schools and the neighborhoods around them but would ruin the private schools too -- ruin them quicker in fact.
They're not government schools? I just call them what they are.

It would seem that tossing kids who want to and can learn in with kids who don't want to or can't doesn't work. Lets put your 8th grader in class with a few who are only there to disrupt the process and one or two have all they can do just not to mess their pants again. But we continue to do that I'm guessing because of gubmint funding. The heck with results, lets get those funds so we can hire another superintendent assistant.

If schools are forced to compete for funds rather than just stand in line and fudge the numbers, our education would improve for all students, now isn't that what the school system really wants afterall?

quoting myself..."The difference is with a private school people have a choice, with the government school, the only choice is to move to a better school district."

You find that cruel and irresponsible and not reality? So?

BTW, those gubmint school AP classes are a joke.
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