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I prefer to be an engineer and to not smother my kids with overprotective paranoia, and act as if I know everything and am the sole source of all knowledge. I also need to make a living to support my children. I won't even go into how I believe you deprive children of social interaction they get at school. Yes, I know they go to scouts and meet kids at the park, but it's not the same as being in school 7 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Of course I can teach a 6 year old to read, that's not the point. My kids are teens now, but I read to them, helped them with homework, discussed current events with them, and taught them many things at home. I just don't feel the need to smother them and am comfortable that they can exist outside the home and still function. My children have been "A honor role" and very successful in public school.
I truly believe that for some parents it's more about control than their children's education.
You are correct. I do purposely "deprive" my children of being stuck in a room with 29 other students for 35 hours per week. They're too busy being out and about every day in the community with all different types of people to spend the equivalent of a full time job doing worksheets, surrounded only by people born in the same zipcode and the same calendar year. (Note that being physically surrounded by children is not the same as socializing. School is not for socializing, as I was told over and over again throughout my public school career! Schooled kids socialize after school hours.) I personally think it's a good thing to "miss out" on that. Obviously you don't. Fortunately, you're not forced to quit your job and teach your own kids, and I'm not forced to leave my home and put my kids in school. It's all about choices.
You are correct. I do purposely "deprive" my children of being stuck in a room with 29 other students for 35 hours per week. They're too busy being out and about every day in the community with all different types of people to spend the equivalent of a full time job doing worksheets, surrounded only by people born in the same zipcode and the same calendar year. (Note that being physically surrounded by children is not the same as socializing. School is not for socializing, as I was told over and over again throughout my public school career! Schooled kids socialize after school hours.) I personally think it's a good thing to "miss out" on that. Obviously you don't. Fortunately, you're not forced to quit your job and teach your own kids, and I'm not forced to leave my home and put my kids in school. It's all about choices.
To each his/her own. Of course, I would suggest moving to a school district where your children aren't in classes of 29 students, and where they are challenged and taught in advanced classes with other high achievers. My children learn advanced subjects in advanced classes. My daughter's 5 grade class had 16 students. My other children are in middle and high school and class sizes are around 20 or so.
The whole argument here seems to be that schools are inherently poor. I disagree. Some schools are poor, and some students who lack parental involvement do poorly. You cannot make the leap that because some students do poorly, that all students do poorly, or that keeping your child at home and having an unqualified parent "teach" them is a better substitute. I disagree with that fundamental assumption.
So then how do you explain the success of homeschoolers in general? If it's not an ideal situation for a child to be homeschooled, why are so many homeschoolers running circles around their public schooled peers?
Maybe its because the home school failures end up in a public school, so that a real teacher can try to repair the damage done to them by their incompetent parent(s)?
I had my share of home school failures during my 37 years as a public school teacher.
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I think it's a bit sad that you have an undergrad degree in engineering and have an excellent general knowledge, but that you don't feel you can teach a six year old to read, or an eight year old how to multiply. It's truly not rocket science or neurosurgery, and I'm not quite sure why teaching is made out to be so hard.
Because it is. Try teaching 35+ students, all of varying ability levels; some with parents who have done a really crappy job of raising them; others with parents who think they know all about teaching, simply because they once attended school; other students cannot speak English; still others have learning disabilities - I could go on. In spite of the obstacles, most teachers do a decent job of educating their students. Before you so cavalierly denigrate an entire profession, why don't you spend a year or so in a teacher's shoes.
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Crowd control issues aside (which I would never want to deal with), it's a matter of reading the teacher's manual.
The very worst teachers in any school subscribe to your theory of teaching.
A good teacher does not need to refer to a 'manual' for his/her teaching methods.
Maybe its because the home school failures end up in a public school, so that a real teacher can try to repair the damage done to them by their incompetent parent(s)?
I had my share of home school failures during my 37 years as a public school teacher.
Because it is. Try teaching 35+ students, all of varying ability levels; some with parents who have done a really crappy job of raising them; others with parents who think they know all about teaching, simply because they once attended school; other students cannot speak English; still others have learning disabilities - I could go on. In spite of the obstacles, most teachers do a decent job of educating their students. Before you so cavalierly denigrate an entire profession, why don't you spend a year or so in a teacher's shoes.
The very worst teachers in any school subscribe to your theory of teaching.
A good teacher does not need to refer to a 'manual' for his/her teaching methods.
To the first bolded part: You and I both know that homeschool "failures" are typically the ones that end up in public school settings. The success stories typically do not. Of course there are exceptions: a parent becomes ill or dies, or the mother has to go back to work, or whatever... but for the most part, the homeschooled kids in school are the ones that homeschooling didn't work out for, for whatever reason. When you hear of homeschooled children winning a spelling bee, or homeschooled teens being recruited or accepted to Ivy League universities, those are not the kids who "failed" at homeschooling and ended up in a public school for a teacher to "fix."
To the second bolded part: Yes, that is why I said "except for crowd control." That is waht I meant; dealing with all of the students. A homeschooling mother deals with her own children, not 35+ students from various backgrounds. I would not want that job, and I will proclaim that I'm not up for it, nor qualified for it! The actual "teaching" someone a skill or a bit of knowledge is truly not terribly difficult. Mothers teach their kids how to tie their shoes, how to write their names, and how to cook spaghetti. It's not much of a stretch to teach them how to read or write or spell or do basic math. And it's also not a stretch to teach them how to find information on their own, or to sign them up for outside classes at the local community college. Homeschool parents are facilitators and coordinators more than strictly teachers as the kids grow.
To the first bolded part: You and I both know that homeschool "failures" are typically the ones that end up in public school settings. The success stories typically do not. Of course there are exceptions: a parent becomes ill or dies, or the mother has to go back to work, or whatever... but for the most part, the homeschooled kids in school are the ones that homeschooling didn't work out for, for whatever reason. When you hear of homeschooled children winning a spelling bee, or homeschooled teens being recruited or accepted to Ivy League universities, those are not the kids who "failed" at homeschooling and ended up in a public school for a teacher to "fix."
So, we both agree that there are successes and failures in both the home schooled and the public schooled.
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To the second bolded part: Yes, that is why I said "except for crowd control." That is waht I meant; dealing with all of the students. A homeschooling mother deals with her own children, not 35+ students from various backgrounds. I would not want that job, and I will proclaim that I'm not up for it, nor qualified for it! The actual "teaching" someone a skill or a bit of knowledge is truly not terribly difficult. Mothers teach their kids how to tie their shoes, how to write their names, and how to cook spaghetti. It's not much of a stretch to teach them how to read or write or spell or do basic math. And it's also not a stretch to teach them how to find information on their own, or to sign them up for outside classes at the local community college. Homeschool parents are facilitators and coordinators more than strictly teachers as the kids grow.
You stated:
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I'm not quite sure why teaching is made out to be so hard
Don't know how to tell you this, but "teaching" includes the "crowd control" part. That's why it is so hard....
Mothers teach their kids how to tie their shoes, how to write their names, and how to cook spaghetti. It's not much of a stretch to teach them how to read or write or spell or do basic math.
OK...I can grant you that point. The question then is when is the subject matter beyond the capability of the parent? I would hope all parents could teach basic math and reading.
So how long do you homeschool? Can a parent teach AP calculus or physics to a high school aged teen? Based on the political participation in this country and the people that get elected, it's pretty obvious that most parents don't pay adequate attention to current events and social studies. How about history? Can most parents explain both American and World history and relate cause and effect with a deep understanding? I seriously, seriously doubt it.
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,020,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311
To each his/her own. Of course, I would suggest moving to a school district where your children aren't in classes of 29 students, and where they are challenged and taught in advanced classes with other high achievers. My children learn advanced subjects in advanced classes. My daughter's 5 grade class had 16 students. My other children are in middle and high school and class sizes are around 20 or so.
The whole argument here seems to be that schools are inherently poor. I disagree. Some schools are poor, and some students who lack parental involvement do poorly. You cannot make the leap that because some students do poorly, that all students do poorly, or that keeping your child at home and having an unqualified parent "teach" them is a better substitute. I disagree with that fundamental assumption.
And I (as well as others) disagree with the fundamental assumption that the public school system is superior than homeschooling just because the teachers hold credentials and because they get to sit in classrooms all day with a bunch of other children. As someone who has a masters in education, I don't have a lot of faith in teacher preparation programs as there is too much emphasis on theories of teaching and not enough emphasis on subject matter. I once read somewhere in regards to the SATs that lots of students who indicated "teaching" as their educational goal scored low on the SAT exam. I wish I had that link but somehow that does not surprise me.
As a personal example, I recall in junior high one teacher who purposely singled me out in class constantly and called attention to irrelevant things about me that had no bearings on the subject and bordered on harrassment. I later discovered that this teacher had mental issues. Obviously, this teacher was credentialed but should have been monitored and perhaps fired after she passed her probationary period. Another example: I missed out entirely my 8th grade year because the teachers were on strike. Because of this, I fell behind in math and was not able to fully catch up until after I entered college and completed remediation coursework.
As far as socialization: I was picked on mercilessly throughout my entire school career due to a facial deformity and suffered low self-esteem because of it. I was never really able to form friendships in school. All of the friendships I had were formed through church and in my neighborhood. All of the socialization I received were outside of school as I never really fit in with my peers.
As a parent, you have the ultimate decision-making authority to determine how to best educate your children. It's apparent that the public schools is the option that you chose for your kids and it seems to be working well for you. It's unfortunate that many parents can't say the same about the public schools where they live. It isn't always easy for a parent to just pick up and move when the public school in their area isn't working so what other options do you recommend? I constantly hear proponents of public schools advising dissatisfied parents to complain and make their voices heard. As many parents can testify, change does not always occur when a parent voices an objection. Even if change does occur, the child has already lost valuable time when they could have been learning as in my class during the teacher strike that occured in 8th grade. Parents are sick and tired of the conditions that are prevailent in many of our public schools and cannot always afford to send their kids to private schools (like many public school teachers do). I admit that not everyone can and should homeschool as it requires the ability to plan and teach lessons, dedication and sacrifice. But for many parents who chooses to homeschool their kids, it is the only option available to them. I have personally interacted with a few homeschooled kids and I was very impressed with their level of intellence which is lacking in lots of students graduating from our high schools these days. Again, you are very fortunate that you live in an area that has a good public school district. Not all parents are this fortunate so who are you to begrudge their choice?
Last edited by Chatteress; 06-30-2009 at 09:56 PM..
Both my children are homeschooled by teachers that also took their children out of the schools. They wanted them to get a quality education and that is not exactly what the schools are interested in any more. They are more interested in social engineering. All the homeschooled kids around here are very active in sports, community interest, art, music and such.
Location: The Chatterdome in La La Land, CaliFUNia
39,031 posts, read 23,020,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311
OK...I can grant you that point. The question then is when is the subject matter beyond the capability of the parent? I would hope all parents could teach basic math and reading.
So how long do you homeschool? Can a parent teach AP calculus or physics to a high school aged teen? Based on the political participation in this country and the people that get elected, it's pretty obvious that most parents don't pay adequate attention to current events and social studies. How about history? Can most parents explain both American and World history and relate cause and effect with a deep understanding? I seriously, seriously doubt it.
What Beanandpumkin and other homeschooling parents have stated previously, if a subject is beyond a parent's expertise, they will enroll their child in a local community college or hire a tutor.
I "unschooled" my kids.
My daughter, at 23, is likely the youngest artisan baker in the state. She owns a bakery and is buying a farm and a house. She grows organic vegetables, and raises chickens and a few dairy cattle. She has put on workshops for college students and others to share information on her farm and businesses. She rents a stall in one of the largest farmers markets in Michigan to sell her products.
My son, 22, is an organic farmer who also is buying a farm. He raises field crops, vegetables and a few pigs. A skilled mechanic, he can tear down and fix everything on the farm. He is teaching himself to use a metal lathe. (He can read manuals that would make your eyes bleed.) He's building a house. Right now he is making the floor joists out of lumber he helped saw, from trees harvested from his own land. He also rents a stall in one of the largest farmers markets in the state to sell his products.
They each have been offered good opportunities to work for other people over the years. They turned them down to work for themselves. I believe that 75% of homeschoolers are self employed.
When the kids were small, I attended a homeschool convention. I was amazed at how well educated the parents were...these people who were choosing to opt out of our educational system and teach their own. I was impressed.
People talk so much about testing....my kids have taken one test in their whole lives. I had to take them to Sear's driving school so they could get their licenses. At the end of the class, the teacher called them to the front and announced that they had the highest test scores he had ever seen in 20? years of teaching the class. One had a 98 and the other a 99.
I have a quote somewhere around here by Einstein..."not everything that can be counted, counts, and not all that counts can be counted". or something like that.
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