U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-10-2009, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
17,145 posts, read 12,336,558 times
Reputation: 14115

Advertisements

[] Cash for clunkers...($4500)
As if encouraging folks to buy a new vehicle with (gasp) 4 MPG more than what they trade in is going to have an impact on the environment.

The rules are simple: Your clunker must have 18 MPG or less, and traded in for a "better" vehicle with +4 MPG or more (cars), or +2 MPG for SUVs.
Going from 18 to 22 MPG will NOT do diddly, except line the pockets of various interested parties.

Such is the nature of Bureaucratic Think - "Government in action".

What's the problem?
List of countries by vehicles per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
USA > 765 vehicles per 1000 people,
or 234,379,996 vehicles based on the estimated population of the United States : 306,379,081.

STEO Table Browser : U.S. Crude Oil and Liquid Fuels Supply, Consumption, and Inventories
U.S. oil consumption: down to 19.2 million barrels / day, due to the economic contraction in 2008.

Domestic production is 4.96 million barrels / day. (2008)
100 x (19.2 - 4.96/19.2 ) = 74% is imported
That's roughly 14.24 million barrels / day we import - and if it was cut off, for whatever reason, what happens?

Oil reserves in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Proven oil reserves in the United States are 21 billion barrels (3.3×10^9 m3), excluding the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. The U.S. Department of the Interior estimates the total volume of undiscovered, technically recoverable prospective resources in all areas of the United States, including the Federal Outer Continental Shelf, the 1002 area of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, the National Petroleum Reserve–Alaska, and the Bakken Formation, total 134 billion barrels (21.3×10^9 m3) of crude oil. This excludes oil shale reserves, as there is no significant commercial production of oil from oil shale in the United States.
0.6 billion barrels of oil = one month U.S. consumption

How long will our domestic supply last (if we had the drilling and refinery capacity)?

PROVEN RESERVES = 35 months (3 years)

And if we spent the next ten years exploiting every possible oil resource, we're still in trouble.

TOTAL OIL RESERVES (unproven) = 223 months (18 years)

So will boosting fuel efficiency of individual vehicles help resolve the problem?
NO.

There are too many vehicles on the road, under utilized, and wasting fuel (energy).

Frankly, even a gas guzzler can be "green".

"Green" Hummer - pack 5 people in it, and it will almost be as "green" as a one occupant hybrid, in terms of fuel consumed per passenger / miles.
H2 Hummer: 8.6 MPG (worst case) x 5 persons = 43 passenger miles / gallon
Honda Insight: 48 MPG x 1 person = 48 passenger miles / gallon

Add the third row seat, and boost passenger load to 7 and you have a "greenie"!
H2 Hummer: 8.6 MPG (worst case) x 7 persons = 60.2 passenger miles / gallon

The moral is that single occupant commuting is a WASTE no matter what automobile you use. And that running any automobile / SUV / minivan at full load is MORE frugal.

Best Green solution?
It's not as lucrative to automakers. Expand electric powered urban rail mass transit to cut down on single occupant vehicles used for commuting.
But commuters rarely can find convenient mass transit to their job sites.
THAT is where government subsidy might be helpful.
Give a bigger tax break to any employer that institutes a mini-bus shuttle serving nearby mass transit stops.
Coordinate employer's mini-bus service to shuttle commuters to / from mass transit, and you might just cut down on the 234,379,996 vehicles. At least, you get the single occupant commuter off the road, and that is a good thing for everybody.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-11-2009, 01:46 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
17,145 posts, read 12,336,558 times
Reputation: 14115
Cash For Clunkers?
(Found on net, somewhere)

A vehicle at 15 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 800 gallons a year of gasoline.

A vehicle at 25 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 480 gallons a year.

So, the average clunker transaction will reduce US gasoline consumption by 320 gallons per year.

They claim 700,000 vehicles – so that's 224 million gallons / year.

That equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of oil.

5 million barrels of oil is about ¼ of one day's US consumption.

And, 5 million barrels of oil costs about $350 million dollars at $75/bbl.

So, we all contributed $3 billion to save $350 million this year.

How good a deal was that ???

Maybe next year, we can be taxed another $4 billion to save $450 million!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2009, 04:02 AM
 
27,087 posts, read 44,374,032 times
Reputation: 15430
Clearly anther Government run project that failed badly...how mny dealers haven't collected their money!

Postal services ...government run and very badly.

etc...
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2009, 05:46 AM
 
1,649 posts, read 1,105,141 times
Reputation: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Cash For Clunkers?
(Found on net, somewhere)

A vehicle at 15 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 800 gallons a year of gasoline.

A vehicle at 25 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 480 gallons a year.

So, the average clunker transaction will reduce US gasoline consumption by 320 gallons per year.

They claim 700,000 vehicles – so that's 224 million gallons / year.

That equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of oil.

5 million barrels of oil is about ¼ of one day's US consumption.

And, 5 million barrels of oil costs about $350 million dollars at $75/bbl.

So, we all contributed $3 billion to save $350 million this year.

How good a deal was that ???

Maybe next year, we can be taxed another $4 billion to save $450 million!
My boy you have just saved the American economy. This new technology that you came up with that gets 42 gallons of gas out of a barrel of oil why it's pure genius. Now if you could just rush this process to the refineries so we could start buying gas for a dollar a gallon you will be our heeero.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2009, 05:54 AM
 
Location: in here, out there
3,061 posts, read 6,615,183 times
Reputation: 5109
What happens to those cars? Some of them are still good cars. Do they get destroyed or are they sold in used car lots? If they go back on the road, how does that help the national fuel consumption?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2009, 06:00 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
17,145 posts, read 12,336,558 times
Reputation: 14115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimw144 View Post
My boy you have just saved the American economy. This new technology that you came up with that gets 42 gallons of gas out of a barrel of oil why it's pure genius. Now if you could just rush this process to the refineries so we could start buying gas for a dollar a gallon you will be our heeero.
You're correct - about 19.5 US gallons of gasoline are available from a 42-US-gallon barrel of oil.
He failed to do his math correctly.

But it still doesn't make sense to spend so much for so little benefit, especially since the program didn't take into account the passenger -miles / gallon of the vehicles in question.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2009, 06:23 AM
 
221 posts, read 417,887 times
Reputation: 97
Not only that, but the Obama administration realized they failed in getting people to buy the really gas efficient cars, so they lied on their Top 10 Car List for cash for clunkers.

They divided up the SUVs (Ford Escape for example) into 2WD and 4WD, so it would make it look like not many people bought those, but in reality the top sellers were SUVS and F150s
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2009, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland
41,306 posts, read 43,166,963 times
Reputation: 7115
Quote:
Do they get destroyed or are they sold in used car lots?
Destroyed. Perfectly good cars.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2009, 06:42 AM
 
69,364 posts, read 61,339,685 times
Reputation: 9381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles22 View Post
What happens to those cars? Some of them are still good cars. Do they get destroyed or are they sold in used car lots? If they go back on the road, how does that help the national fuel consumption?
They were indeed destroyed, some were stripped but many were scrapped and shipped off overseas to be sold for the metal..

yeah, it wont cost money or fuel to ship vehicles to other countries..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-11-2009, 07:21 AM
 
1,649 posts, read 1,105,141 times
Reputation: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
You're correct - about 19.5 US gallons of gasoline are available from a 42-US-gallon barrel of oil.
He failed to do his math correctly.

But it still doesn't make sense to spend so much for so little benefit, especially since the program didn't take into account the passenger -miles / gallon of the vehicles in question.
Now for your question was it worth it? To soon to know for sure early signs point to yes. Auto sales are up in the month of August inventory is at a 6 month low. The Ford Ranger plant here in Mn. that was to close next year is now staying open. Ford Ranger seems to be one of the winners.
When gas hit 4 dollars a gallon Americans cut their consumption by 3%. This dropped the price of gas by 60% to 1.50. If 3% does that what happens if we cut consumption by 5% or 10%. What if 10 years from now we use 20% less than we do now, this can be achieved. Not by the all or nothing mentality of conservatives, rather by incremental changes in the things we do. Cash for clunkers was just one small change.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2022, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top