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"LOL, they don't deserve cell phones because they're poor?"
You are indeed implying that the poor deserve a cell phone with this statement, and further qualify it by stating that cell phone's are "cheaper than landlines."
Cut the crap. You know exactly what you were implying.
Why are you so angry? I didn't imply anything, I simply asked a question. And it's a fact that most cell phone plans are cheaper than land lines, go do some price comparisons.
"LOL, they don't deserve cell phones because they're poor?"
You are indeed implying that the poor deserve a cell phone with this statement, and further qualify it by stating that cell phone's are "cheaper than landlines."
The absolute is that you think people "deserve" a cell phone. The only variable in your statment is whether or not the poor are as deserving as others. Cut the crap. You know exactly what you were implying.
I was one of them. I voted yes because I believe that they will cost the rest of us less money if they are insured than if they are uninsured. I'm not trying to get into a debate about whether or not we should deport them all or not. The fact of the matter is that they are here and as I see it, the only other option is to let them remain uninsured. If we do this, they are much less likely to see a doctor for regular check ups and get preventative care making it more likely that they will have to go to the ER. The ER will continue to be the only place where they can get treatment and they most likely won't be able to pay for it. This causes the hospitals to raise their fees, which causes the insurance companies to raise theirs as well. This means that less people (American citizens and legal residents) will be able to afford health insurance and they will have to go to the ER to meet their health care need and this whole cycle will keep repeating itself and repeating itself.
You all can now proceed to say whatever the hell it is that you are going to say about me: traitor, apologist, idiot, moron or whatever other insult you can think of because you don't agree with my position because I really don't care.
I'm not going to call you any of those things.
My issue is that we need to do everything we can to get them OUT of the country. Providing them goodies will only encourage them to stay.
Yes, we have to provide care for them in life-threatening conditions. And yes, I support it - even if we have to pay for it. I want them sent home - not dead.
My point, though, is that even if the costs of providing them insurance might save some money on emergency care, it will be yet another factor that encourages them to remain in the country in violation of immigration laws. Every time you add another perk, you add another reason for them to stay (and for more to come) and, consequently, you result in more staying/coming. The cost of their presence in the country as a whole exceeds the increased insurance costs associated with providing only emergency health care to illegals.
Last edited by afoigrokerkok; 07-20-2009 at 01:35 PM..
b) Deport each and every single one of them and then RAISE border security.
This - as unrealistic as it may seem.
We CAN do things (like not providing them non-emergency health care and certainly not paying for it, as well as getting them out of their jobs, not providing welfare, etc.) that encourage them to self-deport. We can get millions of them out of the country by self-deportation with encouragement.
As far as the rest, would it be difficult? Without a doubt. But it needs to happen.
I was one of them. I voted yes because I believe that they will cost the rest of us less money if they are insured than if they are uninsured. I'm not trying to get into a debate about whether or not we should deport them all or not. The fact of the matter is that they are here and as I see it, the only other option is to let them remain uninsured. If we do this, they are much less likely to see a doctor for regular check ups and get preventative care making it more likely that they will have to go to the ER. The ER will continue to be the only place where they can get treatment and they most likely won't be able to pay for it. This causes the hospitals to raise their fees, which causes the insurance companies to raise theirs as well. This means that less people (American citizens and legal residents) will be able to afford health insurance and they will have to go to the ER to meet their health care need and this whole cycle will keep repeating itself and repeating itself.
You all can now proceed to say whatever the hell it is that you are going to say about me: traitor, apologist, idiot, moron or whatever other insult you can think of because you don't agree with my position because I really don't care.
You make valid points. In reality, if we were to ever get them all out, they'd all just come back in. Border security is pure fiction. Until we do something to take away what they come here for (employment) they'll keep coming and keep flooding our emergency rooms. And as greedy as we are as a country, we want them here. So if they're going to be here, we might as well make this as cost effective as possible. It sounds ugly politically to say, provide insurance to 12 million illegals but practically, it might be the best thing to do.
Location: I currently exist only in a state of mind. one too complex for geographic location.
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we should give illegals health care. then once they receive the care, we can drive them to the home depot parking lot where there will be a truck with a sign that says trabajo. once inside the truck, they can be driven to tiajuana and dropped off.
I buy as little from the Great Walmart of China as I can. Mostly American made stuff like medicine.
Americans need to start supporting American companies.
Buy American at every opportunity.
GM and Chrysler would not have gone belly up if Americans hadnt sent their money to Japan, Germany and Korea.
If the American car companies would put out a decent car and back it up with a better warrenty then i'm sure Americans would have bought them. They have"FAILED" due to their soddy work.
You make valid points. In reality, if we were to ever get them all out, they'd all just come back in. Border security is pure fiction. Until we do something to take away what they come here for (employment) they'll keep coming and keep flooding our emergency rooms. And as greedy as we are as a country, we want them here. So if they're going to be here, we might as well make this as cost effective as possible. It sounds ugly politically to say, provide insurance to 12 million illegals but practically, it might be the best thing to do.
While I disagree with providing insurance to illegals, I do agree with your point on employment. Penalizing their employers should be the first priority. If there are no jobs (AND no social services - this is important as well) for them, more are likely to leave and those who have left (either voluntarily or by deportations) are less likely to return.
As far as those returning after deportations, that's already a felony under federal law. The government should start enforcing the criminal penalty and putting them in prison - even if the cost of imprisonment is high.
An airtight border, combined with no jobs, no social services (and, yes, IMO no non-emergency healthcare), no ability to have "anchor babies" (this needs to be changed ASAP), and enforcing criminal penalties for those who re-enter following deportations would greatly reduce the illegal immigration problem.
Good, I'm glad we can have a respectful debate even when we disagree with eachother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok
My issue is that we need to do everything we can to get them OUT of the country. Providing them goodies will only encourage them to stay.
I think that "providing them goodies will encourage them to stay" is a realistic assumption. For the part about deporting 12 million illegal immigrants, I'm sure that you remember from my previous posts that we don't see eye to eye on this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok
Yes, we have to provide care for them in life-threatening conditions. And yes, I support it - even if we have to pay for it. I want them sent home - not dead.
Good. My point was that helping them get health care would be cheaper than treating them at the ER all the time. The only other alternative would be to cut off medical services to them alltogether, and it looks like you don't support that either
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok
Every time you add another perk, you add another reason for them to stay (and for more to come) and, consequently, you result in more staying/coming. The cost of their presence in the country as a whole exceeds the incrased insurance costs associated with providing only emergency health care to illegals.
If you want my 2 cents, the main perks that get the illegal immigrants comming to the US are horrible living conditions in their own countries. I believe that ending corporate farm subsidies for farms that dump their products as well as ending free trade agreements that encourage a race to the bottom will help fix this problem. I also believe that harsher punishments for employers that violate labor laws will cut the demand for illegal immigrant labor, which is the other main perk.
You make valid points. In reality, if we were to ever get them all out, they'd all just come back in. Border security is pure fiction. Until we do something to take away what they come here for (employment) they'll keep coming and keep flooding our emergency rooms. And as greedy as we are as a country, we want them here. So if they're going to be here, we might as well make this as cost effective as possible. It sounds ugly politically to say, provide insurance to 12 million illegals but practically, it might be the best thing to do.
This pretty much sums up my feeling on this issue. Since they're here, let's try and make it cost effective. The main reason that we haven't come up with a comprehensive solution to the immigration problem is because it's in the corporations' interest to have a large amount of illegal immigrants desperate for work. We could do some things like create harsher punishment for labor law violations and end NAFTA, which would reduce illegal immigration, but that doesn't fit into the corporate status quo. Since the corporate world pretty much owns our political system, it's not in the political status quo either.
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