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Old 08-06-2009, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,491,412 times
Reputation: 3583

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
To those of you who believe that dividing the U.S. will solve all your problems I offer the following for you to think about.

You seem to believe that if you live in a country where there are only those who look like you, worship like you, and have your political beliefs then you will have found a perfect way to live. Think again. How long will it take before you find differences...some small....some large...and then you will once again be unhappy and looking for further division. Examples;

Ireland. Here is a country that was made up entirely of white Christians who all spoke the same language. What could possibly go wrong? Well, then the Protestant Christians decided that the Catholic Christians weren't "good enough" and the Catholic Christians decided that the Protestant Christians were infringing on their rights. Results....decades of fighting and killing and destruction.

Iraq...and much of the Middle East - Here are countries that are made up almost exclusively of Semite people who are Muslim. Surely they could live in peace. But then the Sunnah and Shiite decide that they are the REAL Muslims and all others are wrong and should die for the error of their ways.

Many countries in Africa, where people look alike in the color of their skin, have destroyed hundreds of thousands of their countrymen because their families belonged to different groups.

I could go on and on throughout history and into the modern day. But one thing is clear....people will always find excuses to hate. And the one thing that the "American Experiment" taught was that unless everyone was free then no one's freedom was safe. If you do not protect the freedom of others to differ from you then your freedom to differ from them is not safe either.

No one says you must change your beliefs. You are free to believe as you like. But others are free to believe as they like too. And that very freedom is all that protects you....and them.
What you really just highlighted is the role that religion plays and the negative and divisive consequences of religion today and throughout history.
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,765 posts, read 26,310,463 times
Reputation: 12287
Quote:
Originally Posted by justfarr1030 View Post
I see what you're trying to say but I'm going to have to disagree.
Your disagreement would make sense in a perfect world that we don't live in. It is human to claim power, and people will always find a way to segregate and fight each other for just that. Take Christianity for example. How can one religion have so many branches?

Do you have any example that proves your point that if, say, all conservatives (or all liberals) were living in a state or a country, where the other (opposition) didn't exist at the time, that they will always be peaceful and power struggle will cease to exist?
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:55 PM
 
11,145 posts, read 14,523,775 times
Reputation: 4209
Quote:
So, I disagree with UHC, does that mean I won't be taxed for it? What about fined for refusing it?
I'm paying for your war in Iraq. I knew it was a sham long before WMDs came up because they couldn't find an excuse people would buy. Now the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings is on my hands. At least you'll only have the health of millions on your hands.

Quote:
I disagree with the political in-place of science being used to push higher taxes for the AGW hypothesis. Do I get to opt out for the taxes concerning it?
And when Bush suppressed research proving AGW, he ordered it suppressed so it would not interfere with his oil mongering. I do not want politics in place of science being used to deny scientific findings either.

Welcome to a pluralistic society. I hope someday you join us and see the value in serving life beyond your own and the sacrifices you must sometimes make to support ideologies other than your own.
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Old 08-06-2009, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Syracuse, NY
162 posts, read 250,728 times
Reputation: 285
Quote:
They preclude themselves. They are not my responsibility, freedom means "individual responsibility". Look, I am not forcing them not to have health care. I am not forcing them to use the existing one. Changes can be made, but they should not require my money for their needs.
Your idea that people preclude themselves from things like health care , work, etc, is based on the notion that everyone who does not have these things is like you in that they are adults, they dont have disabilities, and they have a decent education, etc. You somehow believe that these people, having all of the same blessings you have or had, somehow made a choice to be less than, made a decision to "mooch" as you might say. True, there are some people out there like that, but what about the children of those people, who did not choose to be born to them? What about the guy that busts his ass to earn a living, like you do, but still does not get health insurance and cannot afford it for himself and his family? What about the guy who has a mental disability, who is functional enough that he can live on his own and be excluded from certain benefits, but cannot get a job that provides health insurance or a wage to pay for it himself? What about the retired person whose savings dried up when the markets slumped and now cannot qualify for Medicare or Medicaid or cannot get enough to cover all the bills?

I'm sorry, but your logic that everyone has a chance to make the choice to be responsible isnt completely realistic. If you still believe that in the face of these realities, then you are essentially saying that society should rely on survival of the fittest to determine who lives and who dies, and that we are really no better than animals. 'Screw the people that got shafted by no fault of their own, simply because there are a relatively small number of slackers out there, because Ive got mine and that all that matters.' Thats essentially what youre saying.
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:46 PM
 
23,864 posts, read 14,282,923 times
Reputation: 14606
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
To those of you who believe that dividing the U.S. will solve all your problems I offer the following for you to think about.

You seem to believe that if you live in a country where there are only those who look like you, worship like you, and have your political beliefs then you will have found a perfect way to live. Think again. How long will it take before you find differences...some small....some large...and then you will once again be unhappy and looking for further division. Examples;

Ireland. Here is a country that was made up entirely of white Christians who all spoke the same language. What could possibly go wrong? Well, then the Protestant Christians decided that the Catholic Christians weren't "good enough" and the Catholic Christians decided that the Protestant Christians were infringing on their rights. Results....decades of fighting and killing and destruction.

Iraq...and much of the Middle East - Here are countries that are made up almost exclusively of Semite people who are Muslim. Surely they could live in peace. But then the Sunnah and Shiite decide that they are the REAL Muslims and all others are wrong and should die for the error of their ways.

Many countries in Africa, where people look alike in the color of their skin, have destroyed hundreds of thousands of their countrymen because their families belonged to different groups.

I could go on and on throughout history and into the modern day. But one thing is clear....people will always find excuses to hate. And the one thing that the "American Experiment" taught was that unless everyone was free then no one's freedom was safe. If you do not protect the freedom of others to differ from you then your freedom to differ from them is not safe either.

No one says you must change your beliefs. You are free to believe as you like. But others are free to believe as they like too. And that very freedom is all that protects you....and them.

I don't want everyone to think and be like me. I just want people to work, allow development of our own natural resources, stop rampant government spending, crazy "cap and trade" policies, and attempts to placate the populace with a list of government freebies.

These policies are the antithesis of freedom and not what this country represented since its inception. I think having socialist USA, where no one works and poverty reigns, and capitalist america, where people still work, would be nice for both groups. The socialists could get rid of all of us conservatives who pay thier taxes and provide them free stuff, and we would be shed of thier dead weight. It is win-win.
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:48 PM
 
539 posts, read 651,630 times
Reputation: 119
A warning for all:
First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:56 PM
LML LML started this thread
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,110 posts, read 8,436,614 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
I don't want everyone to think and be like me. I just want people to work, allow development of our own natural resources, stop rampant government spending, crazy "cap and trade" policies, and attempts to placate the populace with a list of government freebies.

These policies are the antithesis of freedom and not what this country represented since its inception. I think having socialist USA, where no one works and poverty reigns, and capitalist america, where people still work, would be nice for both groups. The socialists could get rid of all of us conservatives who pay thier taxes and provide them free stuff, and we would be shed of thier dead weight. It is win-win.
I have helped pay for streets I will never drive down. I have helped pay for schools I will never attend. I have helped pay for wars that I very much oppose. I have helped pay for trains and buses on which I will never ride. I have helped pay aid to foreign countries I will never see. I have helped bail out banks, insurance companies, and investment firms from which I have never received one cent of income. I have paid for many, many things in my 50 years of working and paying taxes from which I have received no benefit. It is called being part of a larger community.....a citizen. The point of people banding together and forming a country...a government...is for the mutual support, mutual security, mutual benefit. What doesn't benefit you today may benefit your neighbor and what doesn't benefit them today may benefit you. Greed and selfishness is destroying this country. Not socialism.
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:59 PM
 
20,194 posts, read 21,557,440 times
Reputation: 9234
I rather not have a divided country, I just wish to have other people stay out the affairs of MY business... liberals have a big problem with that but conservatives seem to have less problems with that... so I guess I lean towards conservatives because, ironically they seem to be more tolerant and letting you decide YOUR life.... I know its pretty ironic... every time I turn around, it seems the liberals are constantly trying to pick my wallet...
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Illinois Delta
5,762 posts, read 4,583,525 times
Reputation: 2060
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicWings View Post
A warning for all:
First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
************************************************** *******
Thanks so much for posting this: it is a very familiar quote to those of us on the left, and was frequently seen as Bush stripped us of our Constitutional rights and safeguards. Seeing the Republicans so deeply involved with religious fringe groups aiming for a theocracy and their hope to hasten Armageddon makes Reverend Niemoller's quote ever more salient.
Too bad we can't e-mail this to the house on C Street and members of "The Family" and the groups who are now being forced to admit that their
"spontaneous" disruptions of town hall meetings have been orchestrated.
Any decent American and patriot understands the danger of a right wing
takeover, particularly considering the attempts to make our military into a religious army for their own use. It is true that as long as you're loudly making accusations about someone else, people won't be watching what you yourself are doing. ( "You" in the universal sense. ) No worries: we on the left have been keeping an eye on everyone's civil rights for decades.
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Illinois Delta
5,762 posts, read 4,583,525 times
Reputation: 2060
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
I have helped pay for streets I will never drive down. I have helped pay for schools I will never attend. I have helped pay for wars that I very much oppose. I have helped pay for trains and buses on which I will never ride. I have helped pay aid to foreign countries I will never see. I have helped bail out banks, insurance companies, and investment firms from which I have never received one cent of income. I have paid for many, many things in my 50 years of working and paying taxes from which I have received no benefit. It is called being part of a larger community.....a citizen. The point of people banding together and forming a country...a government...is for the mutual support, mutual security, mutual benefit. What doesn't benefit you today may benefit your neighbor and what doesn't benefit them today may benefit you. Greed and selfishness is destroying this country. Not socialism.
************************************************** **********
A better defense of democracy could not be made; well done.
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