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Old 08-08-2009, 08:08 AM
 
24,224 posts, read 14,511,199 times
Reputation: 15076

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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
When was that? I must've missed it.
I am sure you did. Obama kept it fairly quiet. It is still going on in Iran- see the presidential protestors who Obama turned his back on.


Saving free people? Oh, little things in US history like the Revolution, the Civil War, World Wars 1 and 2, Korea, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, Bosnia, Iraq......... just those little things.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,712 posts, read 12,349,866 times
Reputation: 4165
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
Saving free people? Oh, little things in US history like the Revolution
Freeing ourselves was good, but hardly altruistic.

Quote:
the Civil War
You know better than this.

Quote:
World Wars 1
Are you kidding?

Quote:
and 2
Yes, helping Stalin, Mao and their compadres conquer half the world was great for freedom.

Quote:
Korea
A consequence of the above blow for 'freedom'.

Quote:
Vietnam
Another consequence of the above blow for 'freedom'

Quote:
Eastern Europe
Another consequence of the above, except that we really didn't do anything besides broadcasting second-rate propaganda at them.

Quote:
Bosnia
A photo-op intervention that came three years too late to do any good.

Quote:
Iraq
A horror and a blunder--an illegal one at that--that destroyed our real interests in the region and weakened the struggle against Islamism.

Now, with that record settled, let's take a look at some of our historical friends, allies, clients, and other tools:

Joseph Stalin
Chiang Kai-shek
Mao Tse-tung
Suharto
Saddam Hussein
Mobutu Sese Seko
Francois Duvalier
Anastasio Somoza
Reza Pahlavi
Ferdinand Marcos
Jonas Sambivi
Muhammad Zia Ul-Haq
Muhammad Yahya Khan
Georgios Papadapolous
Manuel Noriega
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:37 AM
 
351 posts, read 348,611 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
But you seem to believe that your desire to maintain the status quo should preclude others from having health care. And you seem to believe that your desire to disbelieve the scientic evidence about global warming should force the future generation into trying to live on an uninhabital planet. You seem to confuse your right to believe as you wish with forcing others to live with the consequences of your beliefs. You are, of course, free to write your representatives and to vote based on your beliefs. You are not free to overturn the results of the elections and you can not just "pick up your country and go home" when you do't like those results.
You are 100% right.
When are these people who scream "Freedom" understand that they only want their freedom of choice to count. Freedom is not freedom unless everyone can have the ability to make the same "freedom" choices of others, otherwise it is just "Freedom" for the ones who can afford "FREEDOM".
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Old 08-08-2009, 06:38 PM
 
13,055 posts, read 12,039,683 times
Reputation: 2612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evenstar51 View Post
************************************************** *******
My critique of the post's conclusion stands as written. There will be no second, as I prefer to engage in discussions with posters who are, perhaps
through personal experience, more broadly versed in terms of the shared experience of humanity. Undoubtedly a used grammar text and spellcheck will be of far more benefit to you than I. The exchange was interesting.
AKA my liberal bluffs were called, I shall refuse to respond because my hours of looking up fancy words and eloquent attacks have been shown for the weak partisan blabber that they are. I will not respond because I can not respond with anything relevant because my education is in attack and run, not dealing with the content.

Like I said, I have dealt with people that had for more letters next to their titles than I believe you do. They also reverted to the attack and run and it is typical of people who are programmed in an educational system that teaches them to regurgitate programmed thinking rather than thinking for themselves.

Good luck with that and I am truly sorry your education was wasted, however if I ever need a spell checker, I know who to call.
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
701 posts, read 576,360 times
Reputation: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
That's why those of us favoring secession almost NEVER do so on a racial or purely religious basis. I want to live among people with similar ideas, and not be bound hand and foot to people who don't.
In other words, a democracy*
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Old 08-08-2009, 08:13 PM
LML LML started this thread
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,110 posts, read 8,475,799 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
AKA my liberal bluffs were called, I shall refuse to respond because my hours of looking up fancy words and eloquent attacks have been shown for the weak partisan blabber that they are. I will not respond because I can not respond with anything relevant because my education is in attack and run, not dealing with the content.

Like I said, I have dealt with people that had for more letters next to their titles than I believe you do. They also reverted to the attack and run and it is typical of people who are programmed in an educational system that teaches them to regurgitate programmed thinking rather than thinking for themselves.

Good luck with that and I am truly sorry your education was wasted, however if I ever need a spell checker, I know who to call.
Your entire post says nothing except you don't like someone who is well educated and well spoken to disagree with you. It provides no reasoned discussion and adds nothing to the discourse. It just calls names in a schoolyard manner. How is that "thinking for yourself?"
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Old 08-09-2009, 08:26 AM
 
24,224 posts, read 14,511,199 times
Reputation: 15076
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Freeing ourselves was good, but hardly altruistic.



You know better than this.



Are you kidding?



Yes, helping Stalin, Mao and their compadres conquer half the world was great for freedom.



A consequence of the above blow for 'freedom'.



Another consequence of the above blow for 'freedom'



Another consequence of the above, except that we really didn't do anything besides broadcasting second-rate propaganda at them.



A photo-op intervention that came three years too late to do any good.



A horror and a blunder--an illegal one at that--that destroyed our real interests in the region and weakened the struggle against Islamism.

Now, with that record settled, let's take a look at some of our historical friends, allies, clients, and other tools:

Joseph Stalin
Chiang Kai-shek
Mao Tse-tung
Suharto
Saddam Hussein
Mobutu Sese Seko
Francois Duvalier
Anastasio Somoza
Reza Pahlavi
Ferdinand Marcos
Jonas Sambivi
Muhammad Zia Ul-Haq
Muhammad Yahya Khan
Georgios Papadapolous
Manuel Noriega

This is the problem with the modern liberal- they really believe that the US is a force of evil in the world, rather than good. Essentially all of these tyrants that you suggest were "supported" by the US were either deposed or defeated by the US- that is a little different than "support".

Now when you hate the US and are convinced it is on the side of evil, who exactly is good? What other nation has advanced freedom around the world like the US? Why do you live here and burden the nation, rather than living in one of your paradises? Answer- because so far the US has coddled and provided food and shelter for non-productive dead weight, while other nations have not. You would starve anywhere else.

This is shocking. So you (I am beginning to understand libs) really think that the US civil war did nothing to free anyone, and that both world wars did not help any nation, nor the break up of the Soviet Union and freeing eastern europe? You must LOVE tyranny. Most liberals do. Thier shining examples of "progressiveness" are saints like Castro, Chavez, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Ortega and the other despots.

Again- I fail to see how in the world we taxpayers benefit from the dead weight of those of you who do not work and pay taxes? You provide no revenue to the country and just consume the resources and labor of others. That is just a financial burden on the nation and limits progress. Gain some self respect- work hard, get a job, pay your taxes, and stop begging. An adult without physical or mental derangements should be able to stand on his own two feet and be a positive factor to society- not a burden. Dead weight is dead weight and citizens should only be supporting thier own children, not adults who act like children.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:17 AM
 
13,055 posts, read 12,039,683 times
Reputation: 2612
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
Your entire post says nothing except you don't like someone who is well educated and well spoken to disagree with you. It provides no reasoned discussion and adds nothing to the discourse. It just calls names in a schoolyard manner. How is that "thinking for yourself?"
No, my entire post was concerning my experience with those who believed that their education alone validated their opinion and used that arrogance as a position to discredit any who disagreed with them.

This is evident from the poster I was responding to as they used assumptive generalizations and straw man summaries in their responses attempting to proclaim themselves as "above" my simple subjective assessment through experience all the while simply catering to a condemnation no different than my assessment of those in question.

My opinion is subjective on this issue, though it is validated in the realms of my contained experience. Your responses as well as that posters only proves my point in the numerous subjects both of your have posted on others subjects where arrogance, condescending declaration of a superior position is proclaimed by simply attending to the very thing you claim of me.

The difference is that when I call them idiots, I realize it is a simple fallacious position of subjective opinion and I make no attempt to hide my distaste for their idiocy with fancy displays and devious claims of objectivity. I however can step away from such and objectively approach a discussion only resorting to calling a spade a spade when I have exhausted rational dialog with those who are obviously not interested in the topic as much as they are proclaiming anyone who does not worship their position as wrong, in denial, or simply beneath their so highly educated position.

Don't expect reasonable discussion with me if you are going to hold to such devious approaches, It only results in me calling stupid for what it is.
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Illinois Delta
5,762 posts, read 4,610,618 times
Reputation: 2060
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
Your entire post says nothing except you don't like someone who is well educated and well spoken to disagree with you. It provides no reasoned discussion and adds nothing to the discourse. It just calls names in a schoolyard manner. How is that "thinking for yourself?"
************************************************** ********

Judging from many of the responses to the OP, some believe that this country was founded "of me, by me and for me." After almost 3 decades of
attacks on our government by one party, a sense of entitlement developed
that is now putting the fabric of American society in jeopardy as it attempts to undermine an administration with different policies. Those who have profited most in the past are understandably, if not justifiably, anxious to maintain the system that they support: legislation and policies determined by lobbyists and huge special interest groups. The GOP base crumbled under Bush 43, and rather than regrouping and working in earnest to solve the problems we now confront, they find it more expedient and easy to attack, and from all angles. Obama is a Socialist, Obama is a Communist: two different models. Obama is a radical Muslim, Obama is a bad Christian: two different religions. Obama is a black racist, Obama is a white supremacist: apparently he is both, representing each parent. Obama won't keep us safe, Obama is a war-monger for escalating the fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Obama is an intellectual elitist, Obama is stupid and inexperienced. Apparently, President Obama conveniently fits the criteria for all positions, no matter how contradictory they might be.
If the 13 original colonies chose (not without detractors) to create a new type of government and "form a more perfect union," why do people who claim to be patriots wish to dismantle both? Attempting to justify their actions by saying that every criticism is fair because Bush was criticized during his administration is childish, but far worse because Bush is gone yet the problems created on his watch remain and must be addressed. When people equate the idea of offering the services of a counselor every five
years with mandated euthanasia, common sense has flown the coop.
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Old 08-09-2009, 07:20 PM
 
13,055 posts, read 12,039,683 times
Reputation: 2612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evenstar51 View Post
************************************************** ********

Judging from many of the responses to the OP, some believe that this country was founded "of me, by me and for me." After almost 3 decades of
attacks on our government by one party, a sense of entitlement developed
that is now putting the fabric of American society in jeopardy as it attempts to undermine an administration with different policies. Those who have profited most in the past are understandably, if not justifiably, anxious to maintain the system that they support: legislation and policies determined by lobbyists and huge special interest groups. The GOP base crumbled under Bush 43, and rather than regrouping and working in earnest to solve the problems we now confront, they find it more expedient and easy to attack, and from all angles. Obama is a Socialist, Obama is a Communist: two different models. Obama is a radical Muslim, Obama is a bad Christian: two different religions. Obama is a black racist, Obama is a white supremacist: apparently he is both, representing each parent. Obama won't keep us safe, Obama is a war-monger for escalating the fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Obama is an intellectual elitist, Obama is stupid and inexperienced. Apparently, President Obama conveniently fits the criteria for all positions, no matter how contradictory they might be.
If the 13 original colonies chose (not without detractors) to create a new type of government and "form a more perfect union," why do people who claim to be patriots wish to dismantle both? Attempting to justify their actions by saying that every criticism is fair because Bush was criticized during his administration is childish, but far worse because Bush is gone yet the problems created on his watch remain and must be addressed. When people equate the idea of offering the services of a counselor every five
years with mandated euthanasia, common sense has flown the coop.
Again, you use claims of the most radical sides to claim an arrogant position to the issue. I do not hold the position of those extremes to which you so ignorantly attempt to generalize myself and others to.

I disagree with Obama's policies, I do think they overstep their bounds and attempt to demand adherence to personal crusades of his and others to which are contrary to the entire purpose of our nations founding. We have a responsibility to protect our freedoms first, not your or his individual perception of a Utopian society.

If your position were the primary focus, it would have been clarified in the founders words, established in writing in our legal documents and constitutional amendments. They are not, and the only way you can claim as such is to manipulate words, redefine them and ignore historical documents and declarations. I have had these discussions with people like you a million times over and after we have pushed aside the empty claims of your position and finally reached the core facts of our founders words, you simply disregard them claiming them "old", "lacking foresight", or in some cases too underdeveloped to realize our elevated society.

Its garbage, and more propaganda from those who spend too much time pandering to their own claims of elevated intellect than it does dealing with the practical and factual truth.

There is a responsibility to freedom, it means protecting it above all else. That means we can not force people to our causes, they must decide to help themselves. We can not dip into their pockets using emotional claims of "the common good" and bind them to our cause. There exists no right to require such of another and if you persist, I promise you fuel a fire I know you will run away from.

You believe yourself to be above those who disagree with you. You believe your cause to be noble, and just , but do you TRULY believe in such a cause to make the sacrifice that others have had when holding to a cause?

Let me clue you in on how serious of a issue you are wading into when you throw around claims of how peoples rights are second to your causes. You play with a fire that produces a heat that I doubt you will be able to stand. You see, myself and MANY others in this nation believe our right to live free, to make choices of our own without hardship placed by the government and its corrupt self interested parties, that your twisting of words, manipulation of your purpose does not bind us and we will fight you with words and with body if need be. We will die for our beliefs and we will shed blood to defend our rights. Are you willing to take us to task? Are you willing to put your life on the line to stand for the cause you so arrogantly claim yourself correct in? You had better, because when you come to place those shackles on us, we will fight you and there will be no quarter when it comes.
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