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Old 08-06-2009, 01:41 PM
LML LML started this thread
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,110 posts, read 8,438,579 times
Reputation: 5171

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To those of you who believe that dividing the U.S. will solve all your problems I offer the following for you to think about.

You seem to believe that if you live in a country where there are only those who look like you, worship like you, and have your political beliefs then you will have found a perfect way to live. Think again. How long will it take before you find differences...some small....some large...and then you will once again be unhappy and looking for further division. Examples;

Ireland. Here is a country that was made up entirely of white Christians who all spoke the same language. What could possibly go wrong? Well, then the Protestant Christians decided that the Catholic Christians weren't "good enough" and the Catholic Christians decided that the Protestant Christians were infringing on their rights. Results....decades of fighting and killing and destruction.

Iraq...and much of the Middle East - Here are countries that are made up almost exclusively of Semite people who are Muslim. Surely they could live in peace. But then the Sunnah and Shiite decide that they are the REAL Muslims and all others are wrong and should die for the error of their ways.

Many countries in Africa, where people look alike in the color of their skin, have destroyed hundreds of thousands of their countrymen because their families belonged to different groups.

I could go on and on throughout history and into the modern day. But one thing is clear....people will always find excuses to hate. And the one thing that the "American Experiment" taught was that unless everyone was free then no one's freedom was safe. If you do not protect the freedom of others to differ from you then your freedom to differ from them is not safe either.

No one says you must change your beliefs. You are free to believe as you like. But others are free to believe as they like too. And that very freedom is all that protects you....and them.
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:49 PM
 
Location: US
1,189 posts, read 3,728,637 times
Reputation: 826
I agree, but...

Just felt like ranting?
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:50 PM
 
2,795 posts, read 3,818,137 times
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Great points!
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:58 PM
 
769 posts, read 819,228 times
Reputation: 199
Is this addressed to someone arguing against freedom? I don't think you'll find many here.
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:59 PM
LML LML started this thread
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,110 posts, read 8,438,579 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Arp View Post
I agree, but...

Just felt like ranting?
No, actually. But after reading all the messages on the "Letter to Liberals" posting I thought it might be a good thing for people to take a step back and really think about what they were proposing.
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:02 PM
 
13,055 posts, read 11,984,022 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
No one says you must change your beliefs. You are free to believe as you like. But others are free to believe as they like too. And that very freedom is all that protects you....and them.

Really?

So, I disagree with UHC, does that mean I won't be taxed for it? What about fined for refusing it?

I disagree with the political in-place of science being used to push higher taxes for the AGW hypothesis. Do I get to opt out for the taxes concerning it?

I once had an apartment place start charging for a specific cable companies service. They told me that I was free to choose another service, but I was still going to be charged for the one I didn't use. This that definition of freedom you are talking about? Sorry, you can keep your definition of freedom, mines more expensive to earn but it is far more worth fighting for than your manipulation of it.
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:15 PM
LML LML started this thread
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,110 posts, read 8,438,579 times
Reputation: 5171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
Really?

So, I disagree with UHC, does that mean I won't be taxed for it? What about fined for refusing it?

I disagree with the political in-place of science being used to push higher taxes for the AGW hypothesis. Do I get to opt out for the taxes concerning it?

I once had an apartment place start charging for a specific cable companies service. They told me that I was free to choose another service, but I was still going to be charged for the one I didn't use. This that definition of freedom you are talking about? Sorry, you can keep your definition of freedom, mines more expensive to earn but it is far more worth fighting for than your manipulation of it.
But you seem to believe that your desire to maintain the status quo should preclude others from having health care. And you seem to believe that your desire to disbelieve the scientic evidence about global warming should force the future generation into trying to live on an uninhabital planet. You seem to confuse your right to believe as you wish with forcing others to live with the consequences of your beliefs. You are, of course, free to write your representatives and to vote based on your beliefs. You are not free to overturn the results of the elections and you can not just "pick up your country and go home" when you do't like those results.
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,712 posts, read 12,272,593 times
Reputation: 4163
That's why those of us favoring secession almost NEVER do so on a racial or purely religious basis. I want to live among people with similar ideas, and not be bound hand and foot to people who don't.
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:32 PM
 
13,055 posts, read 11,984,022 times
Reputation: 2612
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
But you seem to believe that your desire to maintain the status quo should preclude others from having health care.
They preclude themselves. They are not my responsibility, freedom means "individual responsibility". Look, I am not forcing them not to have health care. I am not forcing them to use the existing one. Changes can be made, but they should not require my money for their needs. I am not "free" from the issue, they "force" me to their position, much like my example of the cable company. I had a "make believe" choice. The fact remains, there is no choice I must pay for it anyway. Again, keep your concept of freedom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
And you seem to believe that your desire to disbelieve the scientic evidence about global warming should force the future generation into trying to live on an uninhabital planet. You seem to confuse your right to believe as you wish with forcing others to live with the consequences of your beliefs. You are, of course, free to write your representatives and to vote based on your beliefs. You are not free to overturn the results of the elections and you can not just "pick up your country and go home" when you do't like those results.
I do not disbelieve anything. The science is not science, its political games. Look, I have discussed the science right down to the reconstructions and the math used in them. I do not "believe" or "disbelieve", I simple see it for what it is and that is an unproven, weak hypothesis that finds more support in politics than it does science. You understand this when you stop using media head lines and political administrative summaries to inform yourself.


Your entire original post was nothing more than an arrogantly derived means of attempting to make your position look like it is innocent, just trying to help and really doing the right thing when it is nothing more than oppressive drivel meant to find emotional appeal to the stupid and idiotic.

You do not want individual freedom. You do not want individual choice. What you want is to have your way all the while proclaiming yourself benevolent in your position. Its a scam, it is garbage only appealing to the uninformed and ignorant.

Like I said, you want your form of freedom (aka oppressive view), then you will have to fight for it, literally.
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Old 08-06-2009, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Medina (Brooklyn), NY
656 posts, read 1,516,857 times
Reputation: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
To those of you who believe that dividing the U.S. will solve all your problems I offer the following for you to think about.

You seem to believe that if you live in a country where there are only those who look like you, worship like you, and have your political beliefs then you will have found a perfect way to live. Think again. How long will it take before you find differences...some small....some large...and then you will once again be unhappy and looking for further division. Examples;

Ireland. Here is a country that was made up entirely of white Christians who all spoke the same language. What could possibly go wrong? Well, then the Protestant Christians decided that the Catholic Christians weren't "good enough" and the Catholic Christians decided that the Protestant Christians were infringing on their rights. Results....decades of fighting and killing and destruction.

Iraq...and much of the Middle East - Here are countries that are made up almost exclusively of Semite people who are Muslim. Surely they could live in peace. But then the Sunnah and Shiite decide that they are the REAL Muslims and all others are wrong and should die for the error of their ways.

Many countries in Africa, where people look alike in the color of their skin, have destroyed hundreds of thousands of their countrymen because their families belonged to different groups.

I could go on and on throughout history and into the modern day. But one thing is clear....people will always find excuses to hate. And the one thing that the "American Experiment" taught was that unless everyone was free then no one's freedom was safe. If you do not protect the freedom of others to differ from you then your freedom to differ from them is not safe either.

No one says you must change your beliefs. You are free to believe as you like. But others are free to believe as they like too. And that very freedom is all that protects you....and them.
I see what you're trying to say but I'm going to have to disagree.

In a perfect world, I would LOVE for it to be like this...but that's never going to happen. The Moors (so called Blacks/Latinos/Hispanics/Native American Indians etc) here in America have been trying to just get along with Europeans since we signed the Moroccan Peace and Friendship Treaty of 1787 and going back to the very foundation of this country (on the contrary to the history books in school) when we founded this government WITH Europeans, the Moors still have not found peace here. While I'm not an advocate of the so called "Back To Africa" theory/movement or what have you, I'm not an advocate for assimilation either. I'm not a reformist, I'm a revolutionary. The Moors need to go back to being self sufficient economically (create own currency), self governing politically (need our own land), and worship our own God (study our own religion). We will never find TRUE peace and happiness until we do these things.
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