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Old 08-15-2009, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
37,475 posts, read 21,709,601 times
Reputation: 13521

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece View Post
These folks are not opposed to it at all. And the fact that it was removed from any bills being considered no has nothing to do with them fearing anything. It's part of the plan to systematically call into question anything and everything the Obama administration proposes, get people to doubt and question, keep folks off balance, and make sure they have no trust or faith in the President at all. That way (and that's the ONLY way) they hope the GOP can seize power again in 2012.

All the "issues" are smoke screens. Nobody is looking out for the best interest of American citizens or the USA.
It's not as black and white as you make it out to be. 0bama's health care adviser, Ezekiel Emanuel, wrote in a medical journal

Quote:
Ezekiel Emanuel
"An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia."
Quote:
Ezekiel Emanuel:
“When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the …youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated…The complete lives system justifies preference to younger people because of priority to the worst off rather than instrumental value.”
Quote:
Ezekiel Emanuel:
“The complete lives system discriminates against older people.Age-based allocation is ageism.Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age.Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years.Treating 65-year-olds differently because of stereotypes or falsehoods would be ageist; treating them differently because they have already had more life-years is not. Age, like income, is a “non-medical criterion” inappropriate for allocation of medical resources.In contrast to income, a complete life is a health outcome. Long-term survival and life expectancy at birth are key health-care outcome variables.84 Delaying the age at onset of a disease is desirable.

The complete lives system is insensitive to international differences in typical lifespan. Although broad consensus favours adolescents over very young infants, and young adults over the very elderly people, implementation can reasonably differ between, even within, nation-states.Some people believe that a complete life is a universal limit founded in natural human capacities, which everyone should accept even without scarcity.By contrast, the complete lives system requires only that citizens see a complete life, however defined, as an important good, and accept that fairness gives those short of a complete life stronger claims to scarce life-saving resources.”
When the government run healthcare is being advised by people who think like Ezekiel Emanuel I believe the people have a legitimate right to be concerned. I think the rhetoric of "Death panels" was used to draw attention to these concerns, and it sure as hell worked.

http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/PIIS0140673609601379.pdf
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:52 PM
 
35,016 posts, read 38,994,379 times
Reputation: 6194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapasha View Post
It's not as black and white as you make it out to be. 0bama's health care adviser, Ezekiel Emanuel, wrote in a medical journal



When the government run healthcare is being advised by people who think like Ezekiel Emanuel I believe the people have a legitimate right to be concerned. I think the rhetoric of "Death panels" was used to draw attention to these concerns, and it sure as hell worked.

http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/PIIS0140673609601379.pdf
Wapasha, these are bioethicists. They look at the implications of medical resource scarcity. For instance: how do you determine whether to save an infant with a brain tumor or a 13-year-old with a brain tumor.*

This is not Dr. Mengele out for your granny. Sorry. Even Trig's mom knows this (she not only knows it, she knew it the whole time she was playing you).

-------------------------------------------------------------

* a classic ethics question (thanks to This American Life):
Imagine you are standing at the top of a cliff. Down below are some train tracks. And in the distance are 5 guys working on the tracks.

Suddenly, you notice a train coming in the distance. It's heading directly for the 5 workers who have their backs to the train. You just know that if something doesn't happen, they will be hit by the train and killed. And you're so far away, they can't hear you yelling to warn them.

Just then, you notice a fork in the train tracks and, on the other track, a single worker with his back to the train. The lever to switch the train to the other track is right next to you.

Question: Do you throw the switch--changing the direction of the train? It will kill the single worker instead of the 5.
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Old 08-15-2009, 01:10 PM
 
2,661 posts, read 2,891,847 times
Reputation: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapasha View Post
It's not as black and white as you make it out to be. 0bama's health care adviser, Ezekiel Emanuel, wrote in a medical journal



When the government run healthcare is being advised by people who think like Ezekiel Emanuel I believe the people have a legitimate right to be concerned. I think the rhetoric of "Death panels" was used to draw attention to these concerns, and it sure as hell worked.

http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/PIIS0140673609601379.pdf
Where are you getting your opinion from?
here?
DEADLY DOCTORS - New York Post

Read this.
Ezekiel Emanuel, Obama's "Doctor Death"? - War Room - Salon.com
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Illinois Delta
5,767 posts, read 4,992,137 times
Reputation: 2062
Quote:
Originally Posted by gysmo View Post
Why must you let other people do the thinking for you.It is so simple we are broke WE DONT HAVE NO MONEY.everybody knows we borrow money from china so WE HAVE NO MONEY clear as day. I would like to have a brand new car but I HAVE NO MONEY.We are broke and this so called president is acting like we just hit the worlds biggest jack pot. I dont get it come on you smart you can figure this out for your self
************************************************** *******

Nobody thinks for me; I offered three different sources relating to Palin and her hypocrisy regarding living wills. We had a tidy nest egg and a balanced budget when the so-called party of "fiscal responsibility" came into office back in 2000; it didn't take long to squander that and billions more. Was the "war" in Iraq worth what it has cost in terms of human lives, our diplomatic status and the hundreds of thousands dead? Nobody on the right was complaining between 2000 and 2008 as the country was put in such a perilous financial position. Where was the concern then? Did Fox News forget to tell people that Bush was ruining our economy, so that the recession/depression is a new revelation? President Obama came into office
and extended a hand to the GOP, and in response they've done everything possible to destroy his administration and, by extension, the country. Think for yourself, and ask why...beyond the lies about Socialism and killing granny and suddenly we're broke. Why be so thoroughly brain-washed as to believe the same people who've been telling you lies for about 30 years?
I trust President Obama and his team of financial advisors far more than I trust proven liars like Bush, Cheney, Palin, Rove et alia. I did my reading and watching and listening before November of 2008 and made an informed decision for a different approach to solving our problems. Government corruption was taken to an entirely different level under Bush 43; why would anyone try to defend that record, while denying the new president the courtesy of working with him to correct America's problems? Neither a smart nor patriotic move.
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Illinois Delta
5,767 posts, read 4,992,137 times
Reputation: 2062
Dr. Emanuel, as quoted by Wapasha:
Ezekiel Emanuel:
“The complete lives system discriminates against older people.Age-based allocation is ageism.Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age.Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years.Treating 65-year-olds differently because of stereotypes or falsehoods would be ageist; treating them differently because they have already had more life-years is not. Age, like income, is a “non-medical criterion” inappropriate for allocation of medical resources.In contrast to income, a complete life is a health outcome. Long-term survival and life expectancy at birth are key health-care outcome variables.84 Delaying the age at onset of a disease is desirable.
************************************************** ************************************
This is simple common sense. Dr. Emanuel speaks against "ageism" and promotes prophylactic health care by improving care throughout one's life as opposed to waiting and allowing people to develop conditions which result in billions of dollars lost through missing work and requiring more treatment and more expensive treatment later in life. Talking about "Death Panels" is nothing more than a tactic used by the insurance industry to scare people who are credulous into believing that anyone would seriously advocate such a thing. It has worked quite well...on the credulous.
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,810 posts, read 14,000,167 times
Reputation: 16469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Politico View Post
Seems that not only did he not read the linked articles, but he didn't even read the OP, since his response had nothing to do with what I wrote.

Figures...
The point was that euthanasia via rationed care is already in place... the implementation is by underpaying physicians, and shrinking the supply of care givers.

The "reform" will do nothing to improve the situation - unless you want to be hired by the engorged bureaucracy.
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:29 PM
 
646 posts, read 1,634,835 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
The point was that euthanasia via rationed care is already in place... the implementation is by underpaying physicians, and shrinking the supply of care givers.

The "reform" will do nothing to improve the situation - unless you want to be hired by the engorged bureaucracy.
actually the legislation is not going to be using the medicare reimbursement rate, and where did you come up with "shrinking the supply of care givers"?
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Old 08-15-2009, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
41,325 posts, read 44,758,430 times
Reputation: 7118
In the end, they took the language out, which proves that obama and the dems/libs were lying once again - and Palin was right.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/...009-08-13.html

Quote:
The Senate Finance Committee will drop a controversial provision on consultations for end-of-life care from its proposed healthcare bill, its top Republican member said Thursday.
Did anyone actually READ her most excellent, in-depth and detailed response?

Sarah Palin: Concerning the "Death Panels" | Facebook

She lays it all out, including how a reasonable person can come to the conclusion regarding those "death panels".

It's all right there in the legislation and in the "words" of those advising obama;

Quote:
President Obama can try to gloss over the effects of government authorized end-of-life consultations, but the views of one of his top health care advisors are clear enough. It’s all just more evidence that the Democratic legislative proposals will lead to health care rationing, and more evidence that the top-down plans of government bureaucrats will never result in real health care reform.
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Old 08-15-2009, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Midwest
38,496 posts, read 25,653,704 times
Reputation: 10789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evenstar51 View Post
************************************************** *******

Nobody thinks for me; I offered three different sources relating to Palin and her hypocrisy regarding living wills. We had a tidy nest egg and a balanced budget when the so-called party of "fiscal responsibility" came into office back in 2000; it didn't take long to squander that and billions more. Was the "war" in Iraq worth what it has cost in terms of human lives, our diplomatic status and the hundreds of thousands dead? Nobody on the right was complaining between 2000 and 2008 as the country was put in such a perilous financial position. Where was the concern then? Did Fox News forget to tell people that Bush was ruining our economy, so that the recession/depression is a new revelation? President Obama came into office
and extended a hand to the GOP, and in response they've done everything possible to destroy his administration and, by extension, the country. Think for yourself, and ask why...beyond the lies about Socialism and killing granny and suddenly we're broke. Why be so thoroughly brain-washed as to believe the same people who've been telling you lies for about 30 years?
I trust President Obama and his team of financial advisors far more than I trust proven liars like Bush, Cheney, Palin, Rove et alia. I did my reading and watching and listening before November of 2008 and made an informed decision for a different approach to solving our problems. Government corruption was taken to an entirely different level under Bush 43; why would anyone try to defend that record, while denying the new president the courtesy of working with him to correct America's problems? Neither a smart nor patriotic move.
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Old 08-15-2009, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Midwest
38,496 posts, read 25,653,704 times
Reputation: 10789
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene View Post
In the end, they took the language out, which proves that obama and the dems/libs were lying once again - and Palin was right.

TheHill.com - Finance Committee to drop end-of-life provision



Did anyone actually READ her most excellent, in-depth and detailed response?

Sarah Palin: Concerning the "Death Panels" | Facebook

She lays it all out, including how a reasonable person can come to the conclusion regarding those "death panels".

It's all right there in the legislation and in the "words" of those advising obama;
The part of the bill taken out was authored by Republicans.
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