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Old 08-17-2009, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,400,833 times
Reputation: 6541

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarlilesiu View Post
There is a big difference between social services and social programs. I suggest you learn the difference. One benefits everybody, the other benefits a select few individuals.Secondly, there is a huge difference regarding WHO administers the program and its validity. The constitution is clear that any powers not given to the federal government are to be imposed at the state and local levels. Thus, Buses, parks, amtrack, subways, interstates, fire departments, police departments, airports are all a smoke screen for your argument. The post office is completely independant of the government. And the military is supported by the Constitution.
You were 100% correct, until you got to the sentence I bolded. Article I, Section 8, Clause 7 of the US Constitution states "[Congress shall have the power] To establish post offices and post roads". That makes the USPS just as dependent on the federal government as the military. They may be an Independent Agency, but Congress continues to fund them, and regulates their business (e.g., Congress increases the postage tax, established new post offices, or closes existing ones, not the USPS).
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:59 AM
 
2,229 posts, read 1,682,624 times
Reputation: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
Where do people get this idea about the postal service being independent from the Government? Your grasp of the Constitution is staggering.
The postal service has been 100% seperate entity from the government from some time now. They actually are operated by a private corporation and do not recieve a single dollar in subsidies from the feds.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:01 AM
 
2,229 posts, read 1,682,624 times
Reputation: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
I am just continually in a state of awe when it comes to the erudite posts of C-D's resident Constitutional scholars. For example, I've read the Constitution over and over again, often read from my copy of the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers as well as Richard Beeman's "Plain Honest Men" and Catherine Drinker Bowen's Miracle At Philadelphia and for the life of me I can figure out how I missed the parts establishing the Department of Defense, the NSA, the CIA or the NRO!
I said nothing about the NSA, CIA, or NRO.

I did however justify the military by:

"To provide for the common defense" as an enumerated power of the federal government as supported by the Constitution.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:05 AM
 
2,229 posts, read 1,682,624 times
Reputation: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
The United States Postal service is not a government owned corporation it is a United states government agency. It is wholly owned by the government and controlled by the Presidential appointees and the Postmaster General

United States Postal Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not quite

The United States Postal Service (USPS). Is it government agency or a private business? It's both.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,660,138 times
Reputation: 24860
bstn421 -

I approve of ALL of the entities you fear the most. I believe we must move toward the government owning all of the natural monopolies instead or attempting to regulate them through a myriad of Public Utility Commissions.

In order to save America from the depredations of the corporate predators we must socialize even more of the economy. We must have a government funded Health Insurance or Care System as the first step toward a properly regulated economy where everyone has Air, Water, Food, Shelter and Medical Care before anyone becomes wealthy enough that they do not have to work.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:25 AM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,975,677 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarlilesiu View Post
I said nothing about the NSA, CIA, or NRO.

I did however justify the military by:

"To provide for the common defense" as an enumerated power of the federal government as supported by the Constitution.
I know you didn't, I was just following the logical progression.

To provide for the common defense...

To promote the general welfare...

Apparently you think that the Defense Department is implied in that portion of the sentence but other programs are not implied within the general welfare clause. How does that work?
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:27 AM
 
2,229 posts, read 1,682,624 times
Reputation: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
bstn421 -

I approve of ALL of the entities you fear the most. I believe we must move toward the government owning all of the natural monopolies instead or attempting to regulate them through a myriad of Public Utility Commissions.

In order to save America from the depredations of the corporate predators we must socialize even more of the economy. We must have a government funded Health Insurance or Care System as the first step toward a properly regulated economy where everyone has Air, Water, Food, Shelter and Medical Care before anyone becomes wealthy enough that they do not have to work.
So, basically, screw the Constitution for what you deem as "fair"? Seriously?
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:32 AM
 
2,229 posts, read 1,682,624 times
Reputation: 623
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
I know you didn't, I was just following the logical progression.

To provide for the common defense...

To promote the general welfare...

Apparently you think that the Defense Department is implied in that portion of the sentence but other programs are not implied within the general welfare clause. How does that work?
I have no problem with the General Welfare. Like during the depression, the government provided assistance to those in the GENERAL public who needed it.

The problem is, the word GENERAL has a meaning behind it.

Definitions of general:
  • applying to all or most members of a category or group; "the general public"; "general assistance"; "a general rule"; "in general terms ...
The general welfare clause isn't in the constitution to push this country to complete socialist agenda every time some joe needs some assistance. The federal government should not be implementing programs based on individual needs, but rather on the population as a whole, or the general condition of the people.

Additionally, general welfare is not a get out of jail free card for the feds to over step their powers everytime they feel justified.

James Madison said:

"With respect to the words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

Which is exactly what you are trying to do.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:34 AM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,262,242 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by bstn421 View Post
This evil attempt by Obama is only the latest attempt for the goverment to take over our lives. We must get rid all sources of socialism to save our selves from being comerades. Buses, public parks, Amtrack, subways, Interstates, fire departments, police departments, airports, the post office, the military. ALL MUST GO. We must save America!!!
For chrissakes, would you people PLEASE stop listening to Glenn Beck?

It's mind-boggling how many Americans there are who just blindly follow the FOX freaks. Frightening, really.

Just stop it, please.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,400,833 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarlilesiu View Post
The postal service has been 100% seperate entity from the government from some time now. They actually are operated by a private corporation and do not recieve a single dollar in subsidies from the feds.
You are wrong. Congress determines everything about the USPS, from the taxes it can charge, to the buildings where they operate, and everything inbetween.

The only way you are going to get the USPS out of the Congress' control is through an amendment to the US Constitution.
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