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Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
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Good thread. I enjoyed reading everyone's take on this so I'll add my own. This only speculation however as no one can really predict the future.
I think things will tend to trend leftwards. This has been the general rule in the U.S. Even when "conservatives" are in power things get progressively more "liberal". Sometimes this is good, sometimes it is not so good. But this leftward trend will be punctuated with abrupt shifts to the right due to crisis.
Terrorist organizations still want to attack the U.S. They have been largely unable to do so since 9/11 because of this "right-wing" government. But eventually they will succeed again. The international tension will only increase because of the policies of Al Qaeda, North Korea, and Iran. The well-intentioned left I believe lacks the tools (and the will) to deal effectively with these kinds of threats. Sometimes war (and I mean total war, not the limited war that we have been fighting) is unavoidable. The left understands this with respect to the Civil War, in which the Union especially General Sherman waged total war on the Confederacy, and in WWII in which the U.S. and its allies waged total war on Germany and Japan, but they don't seem to understand it with respect to radical Islam.
This enemy, like all others before, must be defeated by making it more painful and costly to fight than to surrender. We must break their will to fight and so far we haven't even started to do that.
Good thread. I enjoyed reading everyone's take on this so I'll add my own. This only speculation however as no one can really predict the future.
I think things will tend to trend leftwards. This has been the general rule in the U.S. Even when "conservatives" are in power things get progressively more "liberal". Sometimes this is good, sometimes it is not so good. But this leftward trend will be punctuated with abrupt shifts to the right due to crisis.
Terrorist organizations still want to attack the U.S. They have been largely unable to do so since 9/11 because of this "right-wing" government. But eventually they will succeed again. The international tension will only increase because of the policies of Al Qaeda, North Korea, and Iran. The well-intentioned left I believe lacks the tools (and the will) to deal effectively with these kinds of threats. Sometimes war (and I mean total war, not the limited war that we have been fighting) is unavoidable. The left understands this with respect to the Civil War, in which the Union especially General Sherman waged total war on the Confederacy, and in WWII in which the U.S. and its allies waged total war on Germany and Japan, but they don't seem to understand it with respect to radical Islam.
This enemy, like all others before, must be defeated by making it more painful and costly to fight than to surrender. We must break their will to fight and so far we haven't even started to do that.
In my earlier post on this thread, I apologized for the bleak future I painted. At least in mine, I put out hope that we would somehow manage to survive. Your post--from the right of the political spectrum--makes me lose all hope entirely! I can't even hear myself think over the sounds of the gunfire, for I see more than two billion dying in your scenario.
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,506 posts, read 4,278,870 times
Reputation: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhouse2001
In my earlier post on this thread, I apologized for the bleak future I painted. At least in mine, I put out hope that we would somehow manage to survive. Your post--from the right of the political spectrum--makes me lose all hope entirely! I can't even hear myself think over the sounds of the gunfire, for I see more than two billion dying in your scenario.
Sorry that I caused you to lose hope. I do think that your assessment is more pessimistic than mine. I don't really imagine two-billion people dying. There are only about 1 billion muslims worldwide, and not all of them are radicals. I would say that at worst we face an upper limit of 100 million radicals, probably less. So we are looking a bad conflict to be sure, about the same scale as WWII, with similar losses.
*sighs* Lucidus, I wish people would stop taking the stance you've taken on terrorism. We now live in a world where empires (like the US) can no longer get away with pushing the little guys around. We have to adapt. The Romans could push everyone around because WMDs did not exist. We cannot. We cannot force the entire world to bow to our whims. The problem I have with the neo-con ideology is that the world must conform to us, instead of us conforming to the world. This will not end well. As it stands, if we changed our foreign policy strategy, we could salvage a semi-amicable relationship with the rest of the world. If we continue on our current course, we assure our own destruction.
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,506 posts, read 4,278,870 times
Reputation: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeavingFlorida05
*sighs* Lucidus, I wish people would stop taking the stance you've taken on terrorism. We now live in a world where empires (like the US) can no longer get away with pushing the little guys around. We have to adapt. The Romans could push everyone around because WMDs did not exist. We cannot. We cannot force the entire world to bow to our whims. The problem I have with the neo-con ideology is that the world must conform to us, instead of us conforming to the world. This will not end well. As it stands, if we changed our foreign policy strategy, we could salvage a semi-amicable relationship with the rest of the world. If we continue on our current course, we assure our own destruction.
You're right, we can confirm to them and end the conflict. How do you feel about Shia law?
I am not talking about making anyone bow to our whims. These guys have made it clear that they intend to bring the world under muslim control. We could have peace today if they would stop killing people in the name a dead prophet. Don't put the blame on America, we didn't start this one. You cannot have a "semi-amicable relationship" with these people anymore than you could with the Nazis. There is no way to appease them given their goals.
I do agree that if we continue on our current course we assure our own destruction. We need to start taking the fight seriously.
Sorry that I caused you to lose hope. I do think that your assessment is more pessimistic than mine. I don't really imagine two-billion people dying. There are only about 1 billion muslims worldwide, and not all of them are radicals. I would say that at worst we face an upper limit of 100 million radicals, probably less. So we are looking a bad conflict to be sure, about the same scale as WWII, with similar losses.
I didn't figure war into my future equation as I believe the situation will be too dire for any war to be fought. The incentive to simply survive will overwhelm any support for another useless war. The dilemma I take from your perspective is that you don't mention that America is despised by several billion rational people, few of whom will come to our support against our imaginary 'Muslim radical enemy'. (Yes, I insist it's imaginary, the enemy du jour, whatever justifies our military's continued existence and defense contractors' huge profits).
You see enemies, I see fabrications to justify further war.
You see war as the solution, I see it as the lowest human endeavor.
Your scenario continues a history of endless war, my scenario forces humanity to choose a better alternative.
Last edited by mhouse2001; 04-30-2007 at 09:42 AM..
You're right, we can confirm to them and end the conflict. How do you feel about Shia law?
We just have to stop bothering them. All humans have the same basic needs. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge is testament to your racism.
Quote:
I am not talking about making anyone bow to our whims. These guys have made it clear that they intend to bring the world under muslim control. We could have peace today if they would stop killing people in the name a dead prophet. Don't put the blame on America, we didn't start this one. You cannot have a "semi-amicable relationship" with these people anymore than you could with the Nazis. There is no way to appease them given their goals.
I do agree that if we continue on our current course we assure our own destruction. We need to start taking the fight seriously.
I wasn't talking about a semi-amicable relationship with the 100-200 people who frighten the daylights out of you. I was talking about the other 6.5 billion people on this planet.
Frankly, people like you scare me far more than any "terrorist" ever could. You're acting like we're in some sort of movie, where the good guys where white hats and the bad guys where black hats.
I still have faith in our constitution and bill of rights,I think that things balance themselves out in the end.This is of course is as long as the constitution continues to be upheld.
Sometimes I wonder if America is in its twilight though,with mass murders happening and over time rights have been diminished or that too many people have less value on rights and more concerned about "whats right for me".
with so much mass immigration happening with people use to the style of their country they fled,not learning the principles of the constitution....I dunno I guess nothing lasts forever.
From beggining to end though,it was always up to the people to make it or break it.
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,506 posts, read 4,278,870 times
Reputation: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhouse2001
I didn't figure war into my future equation as I believe the situation will be too dire for any war to be fought. The incentive to simply survive will overwhelm any support for another useless war. The dilemma I take from your perspective is that you don't mention that America is despised by several billion rational people, few of whom will come to our support against our imaginary 'Muslim radical enemy'. (Yes, I insist it's imaginary, the enemy du jour, whatever justifies our military's continued existence and defense contractors' huge profits).
You see enemies, I see fabrications to justify further war.
You see war as the solution, I see it as the lowest human endeavor.
Your scenario continues a history of endless war, my scenario forces humanity to choose an alternative.
Yes America is despised, but that is not the issue. The biggest power is always despised by everyone else.
You should reconsider your position. This enemy is real. I do hope that you are not one of those people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job. This enemy wants to kill us all, and they already murdered many of our countrymen. We cannot choose an alternative because none is offered. If we unilaterally stop fighting, that will only encourage the enemy to do more mass murder.
Sadly you are right, my scenario continues an already bloody history of warfare, but at least it is consistant with reality.
Yes America is despised, but that is not the issue. The biggest power is always despised by everyone else.
You should reconsider your position. This enemy is real. I do hope that you are not one of those people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job. This enemy wants to kill us all, and they already murdered many of our countrymen. We cannot choose an alternative because none is offered. If we unilaterally stop fighting, that will only encourage the enemy to do more mass murder.
Sadly you are right, my scenario continues an already bloody history of warfare, but at least it is consistant with reality.
You've bought into the propaganda, hook, line, and sinker.
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