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As for this claim that universal healthcare is a "moral issue" ....again hogwash. The problem here isn't a moral issue but a political one.
Many might claim that you see health care as a political issue only because of a moral judgement already made that denies any obligation to meet minimum standards with respect to other human beings. If, for instance, you took the parable of the Good Samaritan to have been a political tale rather than a moral tale, that would explain a lot.
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Originally Posted by neil0311
First, there are wildly differing claims on what the actual number of uninsured Americans actually is today. The Democrats keep throwing around inflated claims of 45 - 50 million that have no basis in fact.
Those data are taken from the Census Bureau's Current Population Survey and so have a very well established basis in fact. The data do not examine the reasons why people do not have health insurance. They are merely the best estimate that is available anywhere for how many do not have health insurance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311
More rational estimates, excluding illegal aliens and those who could have health insurance (but choose not to buy it or apply for existing programs), is only around 10 million.
There is not much that can really be called rational in right-wing attempts to explain away the Census data. Not nearly every foreign-born non-citizen is an illegal alien for instance, and neither are those who are stuck in state waiting periods (of 4 to 12 months) going without insurance by choice. Neither are those whose "transition" from one job to the next is now averaging nearly six months, nor those half to two-thirds of young people who don't have insurance but say in surveys that they would love to have insurance if only it were available and affordable to them.
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Originally Posted by neil0311
The moral issue here is the expansion of government and ever increasing class warfare that extolls the virtue of the unproductive who pay little or no taxes while demonizing the productive who pay the vast percentage of taxes.
This Just In: Class warfare does not commence when one class defends itself after having been attacked and ravaged by another.
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Originally Posted by neil0311
To add insult to injury, the productive are insulted and impugned and called selfish, while demagogues discuss them paying their "fair share" while half the US population pays nothing.
Low-income people are as or more industrious and productive than high-income people, and you have to use bogus data to conclude that half the people pay no taxes. Bogus data would include those published by the IRS based on tax return numbers AFTER application of the EITC and ACCC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311
Frankly, I'm disgusted by the fact that this country has moved away from our Constitution, and the concepts of individual achievement, personal responsibility, and the rights of individuals to keep what they earn. If there are morals that have been lost, they are the morals of working hard for what you want and not complaining that you're a victim because you don't get things handed to you on a silver platter at the expense of others.
And I'm disgusted everyday by the fact that this country still has people in it who make up all sorts of inane excuses to disguise the fact that they want all the many benefits that this society has to offer but wish to accept none of the responsibilities that it imposes. Such people are irresponsible free-loaders pretty much however you want to slice it.
"Family premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in the U.S. increased 119% between 1999 and 2008, far, far higher than any increase in wages, according to a new survey. If current trends continue, premiums are on course to increase another 94% by 2020, to an average of $23,842 per family. Employees pay on average about 30% of this amount.
The study, by the non-profit, non-partisan Commonwealth Fund, found that in 2008 total premiums—the amount paid by both the employee and employer—equaled or exceeded 18% of the average household income for the under-65 population in 18 states, compared to just three states in 2003. In Mississippi, Tennessee and West Virginia, family premiums averaged 20% or more. Southern and South-central states in general felt the pain of rising premiums the most, because incomes are lower than national averages."
Employer-Sponsored Insurance Premiums Rose 119% Over Past Decade - BusinessWeek
you can also look at Google results for "health care premiums rose" to see percentages in rise over various time spans for different states.
Interesting, but it does nothing to rebut my point.
There is no health care "crisis" in this country. Period.
Could the system use some reform to make access more affordable? Sure. You won't get an argument from me about that. It's expensive. But a crisis it is not. And we SURE AS HELL don't need the government getting into the business. IT'S NOT THEIR JOB.
Interesting, but it does nothing to rebut my point.
There is no health care "crisis" in this country. Period.
Could the system use some reform to make access more affordable? Sure. You won't get an argument from me about that. It's expensive. But a crisis it is not. And we SURE AS HELL don't need the government getting into the business. IT'S NOT THEIR JOB.
(yanks off headphones) you dont have to scream.
? It rebuts your point absolutely. If people cant afford to pay for health care...etc.
How do you suggest health care be made affordable for all?
And where is the tort reform? How much of the excess cost is due to trial lawyers and frivolous lawsuits?
Almost none. Why the right-wing marching-order-givers have sought revive this long dead idea is beyond me. For one thing, more than half the states already have tort award limits. For another, the system is very good at weeding out frivolous suits. The problem in fact is that it weeds out about twice as many suits that have actual merit as it does those without. For yet a third thing, malpractice premiums -- the thing that actually would contribute to health care costs if the tort-theory were correct -- do not vary according to trends in either suits or awards. The two historical drivers of malpractice premiums have been stock market prices and the degree of competition in state insurance markets. Gee, what a shock.
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Originally Posted by neil0311
Why won't Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and our resident deal with this most obvious contributing factor to rising costs?
Because it's less than a trivial factor and those who have been paying attention know that.
What a bunch of hogwash. I'll echo the sentiments of who cares what a celebrity thinks, and add the sentiment of who cares what Canadians thinks. They can feel free to do what they want to their own country while the US picks up the tab for their safety and security as it has since the 1940s.
As for this claim that universal healthcare is a "moral issue" ....again hogwash. The problem here isn't a moral issue but a political one. First, there are wildly differing claims on what the actual number of uninsured Americans actually is today. The Democrats keep throwing around inflated claims of 45 - 50 million that have no basis in fact. More rational estimates, excluding illegal aliens and those who could have health insurance (but choose not to buy it or apply for existing programs), is only around 10 million. There are ways of covering those people without a big government takeover that adds to the tax burden on business and productive citizens.
The moral issue here is the expansion of government and ever increasing class warfare that extolls the virtue of the unproductive who pay little or no taxes while demonizing the productive who pay the vast percentage of taxes. To add insult to injury, the productive are insulted and impugned and called selfish, while demagogues discuss them paying their "fair share" while half the US population pays nothing.
Frankly, I'm disgusted by the fact that this country has moved away from our Constitution, and the concepts of individual achievement, personal responsibility, and the rights of individuals to keep what they earn. If there are morals that have been lost, they are the morals of working hard for what you want and not complaining that you're a victim because you don't get things handed to you on a silver platter at the expense of others.
Hmmm. Social Security reliably provides support to nearly 50 million retired and disabled Americans and their survivors and dependents at administrative cost rates that make index fund managers look like hogs.
Food stamps reliably provide support to nearly 30 million Americans at fraud and abuse rates of about 2%, much of that not by recipients, but by small businesses who have been authorized to accept food stamps.
I wonder what track record it is that you are actually referring to?
Probably the fact that social security is going broke, and medicare is riddled with fraud. In addition, how's the gubmint at managing it's money over the last 40 years? Those are probably what he/she was talking about.
What ARE those reasonable questions that are still in need of being answered, and why do Randall Terry and a bunch of anti-abortion rowdies show up at a Health Care Town Hall in Northern Virginia?
Face it, not having any actual argument to make, the right-wing is deliberately trying to demagogue this issue and to poison the debate with trumped up allegations and complaints in resorting to the same sort of mushroom-cloud fear tactics that have been used by the right-wing around this and other issues for decades.
All you do is ask questions and don't provide any answers. You keep asking "Why" but don't seem to bring anything intelligent to the debate...
Apparently I do, because you're not listening. You're taking your HuffPo/Pelosi talking points and sprinting with them.
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Originally Posted by delusianne
How do you suggest health care be made affordable for all?
I've posted my ideas several times in these threads. Frankly, I'm getting pretty sick of repeating myself.
First, tort reform. When an OB/GYN has to pay nearly a $250,000 per year just for one insurance policy, something's wrong. Who do you think pays that quarter million? Do you think it falls out of the sky? No, their patients pay it, whether it's in the form of cash or higher insurance premiums.
Second, drop the FEDERALLY IMPOSED barriers that prohibit insurance companies from offering plans across state lines.
I've been saying those two things for YEARS - much longer than I've been hearing them from anywhere else. Malpractice insurance is very, very expensive, and the single biggest administrative expense that any doctor faces.
Another good idea that I heard recently was to offer tax incentives to doctors for volunteering their time at clinics.
There are a LOT of ways to bring down the cost of access, and none of them involve the government getting into either the provision of services or insurance business.
But as usual, the lefties are maintaining their "it's my way or the highway" mentality, and don't want to hear anything reasonable. So much for Obama being a "uniter", eh?
EVERYONE "pony's up", we HAVE to if we get sick. The problem is twofold:
1) Lack of choices.
2) Obscene cost.
BOTH can be remedied. The blue dog Democrats, working hand in glove with their fellow sold out constituents in the (entire) Republican Party are conspiring in concert to defeat this long overdue reform.
The insurance lobby has lots of money to spend on advertising. Advertising meant to spread disinformation and doubt
If you get sick, just deal with it. There is healthcare available. Show some personal responsibility.
The overhead on Medicare is the inefficieny, waste, and fraud. Have you been asleep? Here are just two small tidbits. The bureaucratic mess is just astounding, and you want to increase and build on it?
Huh? Not have a place in this argument? So you just ignore one of the ingredients that contributes to huge cost increases because politically it's not on your radar? Are you serious?
I think O_D____ny is drinking some pretty powerful cool-aide. If it doesn't suit his agenda, it doesn't belong in this argument. What a ______..
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