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What was the nominating process in the gilded age? It certainly wasn't a grueling 50 state pre-election that we have now, hell the primaries and caucuses, the people's voice within the party, wasn't as significant in the 1960's as they are now, for good or for ill.
What is your point? The "founding fathers" condoned slavery and the oppression of women,children, and native Americans. It's no surprise the USA had a rough start and improved through "the centuries".
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto
I keep reading that the U.S. is increasingly undemocratic accompanied by cries about returning the country to the principles on which it was founded... well let's review the progress of American democracy.
The "Founders" never intended;
For anyone other than white male property owners to have the right to vote, which in 1790 was 10 to 15 percent of the population.
But...
In 1828 the last religious restriction on voting was removed when Maryland granted Jews the right to vote.
In 1850 all adult white males were finally allowed to vote.
In 1870 the right to vote was extended to black males.
In 1913 the people were allowed to elect their senator for the first time.
In 1910 the first presidential primary was established,
In 1920 women are finally granted the right to vote.
In 1944 private (read white only) primaries were outlawed.
In 1971 the voting age was dropped to 18 years of age, old enough to fight old enough to vote.
In short, in 1789, the people had no say in the presidential nominating process, only white males who owned property could vote (as long as they weren't Catholic or Jewish) and candidates to the U.S. Senate were selected by the state legislature or the governor with no input from the voting public.
By the way, the Constitution established the selection of the Senate by state governments for the expressed purpose of being a check against the whims of the popularly elected members of the House (so much for the Congress not listening to the "'will" of the people).
So, if American is moving towards, despotism and tyranny, we've got a long way to go before we become as despotic and tyrannical as the Founders intended.
The worst miistake was the 17th Amendment, The Senate was supposed to represent the the States not the Electorate. That way being Confirmed by the Senate meant being approved by the States. Right now the Senate is as useful as a Second Navel
You know that you aren't making much sense?
The last I checked, Senators were elected solely by the population of their particular state, so in fact Senators still "represent" their state. The only difference is that the people of that state, not the legislature or the governor is responsible for their selection.
Your feeble attempts to impersonate Henry Campbell Black aside...
Your attempt to draw a distinction between a republican form of government and a direct democracy aren't germane to the use of the word democratic is not in conflict with the concept of a republican form of government.
As Alain Touraine points out, the three characteristics of a democratic society are; rulers who are representatives; elected by the populace; and that there are limitations on the powers of the rulers. The American republic is oft and correctly described as a representative democracy. The fact that it is a republic does little to denigrate its democratic foundations.
Your rebuttal is in error.
[1] Thank you for the insult and / or clueless allusion. It is high praise from one's opponent. I blush.
[2] A democratic form is mutually exclusive of the republican form.
[3] Americans are promised a republican form, not a democratic form of government.
[4] A republic is not synonymous with a republican form.
The U.S.A. is NOT a democracy, but a republic with a republican form of government.
REPUBLIC - A commonwealth; That form of government in which the administration of affairs is open to all the citizens. In another sense, it signifies the state, independent of its form of government.
Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 1302
A republic is not synonymous with a republican form of government. The People's Republic of China is a republic but not a republican form.
"GOVERNMENT (Republican Government)- One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated."
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 695
In contrast:
"DEMOCRACY - That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy."
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 432
Restating
Democratic Form: Whole Body of Citizens indirectly exercise sovereignty (absolute power) through their representative legislators, who in turn, delegate authority to the executive branch to execute the laws. The citizenry, having submitted to the dominion of government, are subjects.
Republican Form: Individual people directly exercise sovereignty. They may delegate certain powers - via petition - to the servant government. Example - when making a criminal complaint, the sheriff becomes their representative. Or in a foreign country, petitioning the ambassador for assistance. Having not given consent to be "governed", they are not obligated to perform civic duties and other impositions.
Article 4, Section 4, USCON, promises a "republican form" to the States.
U.S.A. is NOT a democracy, but a republic, with a republican form of government (in the states), and a modified democratic legislature, limited by constitution.
The American people are sovereign, endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights. And they may surrender those rights, by consenting to be citizens, and accept the civic duties that come with citizenship. Thus they change from the republican form to the democratic form.
*(If all Americans were citizens, at birth, it would be involuntary servitude and unconstitutional.)
Remember, pursuant to the Declaration of Independence, America's governments are instituted to (a) secure rights, and (b) govern those who consent.
If our inalienable rights include life, liberty and property ownership, then WHERE DID THE GOVERNMENT GET THE DELEGATED POWER TO DENY OUR RIGHTS TO LIFE, LIBERTY, ETC - AS IN THE CASE OF CONSCRIPTION?
Answer: Consent. By volunteering to be a citizen.
Didn't you know that one of the duties that male citizens accept is to be in the Militia?
Title 10 USC Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, ..., under 45 years of age who are,... citizens of the United States....
Title 50 USC Sec. 453. Registration (Selective Service)
(a)...it shall be the duty of every male citizen of the United States, ... to present himself for and submit to registration ...
"Selective Service" is merely the way to discriminate from the pool of eligible militiamen, which "Volunteers" are to train, fight, and die on command of the commander in chief.
Jet, I've read your cut and paste Black's Law Dictionary arguments ad nauseam, Mrs. Catto (in house council) refuses to even allow me to show them to her any longer.
So I am only left with the following comment; whatever.
Jet, I've read your cut and paste Black's Law Dictionary arguments ad nauseam, Mrs. Catto (in house council) refuses to even allow me to show them to her any longer.
So I am only left with the following comment; whatever.
Perhaps you can show your in house council / counsel this little excerpt from the founding generation:
Virginia Constitution. 1776
SEC. 6. That elections of members to serve as representatives of the people, in assembly, ought to be free; and that all men, having sufficient evidence of permanent common interest with, and attachment to, the community, have the right of suffrage, and cannot be taxed or deprived of their property for public uses, without their own consent, or that of their representatives so elected*, nor bound by any law to which they have not, in like manner, assembled, for the public good.
All men ... cannot be taxed without their own consent.
All men ... cannot be deprived of their property for public uses without their own consent.
All men ... cannot be bound by any law that is not for the public good.
(* those who exercise political liberty and vote, are bound by their consent, but the other men who have not consented are not bound.)
Jet, I've read your cut and paste Black's Law Dictionary arguments ad nauseam, Mrs. Catto (in house council) refuses to even allow me to show them to her any longer.
Ask your council / counsel, to explain who the sovereign people are, if not the American people?
And if the American people are sovereign over the government, then how can all Americans be born subject citizens?
Citizenship comes with mandatory duties (jury duty, militia duty, etc). If citizenship can be imposed, at birth, then those duties become involuntary servitude - which is unconstitutional.
Can the servant government imposed compulsory duties upon the people it serves?
I understand where you are trying to go with this but the bottom line is that PAC's do not vote.
They vote via $$ pumped into candidates war chests.
This has 2 effects:
1. Give the PAC candidate an often unbeatable ability to purchase airtime to run, ads- theuth ful or not.
2. Perhaps more importantly, it serves to limit just who is seen by either major candidate as a viable force because they measure (wrongly) popular support by $ raised.
The net result is an election in which the choice is one PACman (or woman) vs the other PACman (or woman).
That in essence is how Tamany Hall controlled NYc politics in the 19th century.
And why we are again (Gilded Age) a plutocracy, and not a democracy.
They vote via $$ pumped into candidates war chests.
As I said, I understand you point, but it isn't germane to the point of the thread.
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