Just A Reminder; The U.S. is far more democratic than the "Founders" ever intended.

[Blue Grass Fever]

Originally Posted by ovcatto

I keep reading that the U.S. is increasingly undemocratic accompanied by cries about returning the country to the principles on which it was founded... well let's review the progress of American democracy.

The "Founders" never intended;

For anyone other than white male property owners to have the right to vote, which in 1790 was 10 to 15 percent of the population.

But...

In 1828 the last religious restriction on voting was removed when Maryland granted Jews the right to vote.

In 1850 all adult white males were finally allowed to vote.

In 1870 the right to vote was extended to black males.

In 1913 the people were allowed to elect their senator for the first time.

In 1910 the first presidential primary was established,

In 1920 women are finally granted the right to vote.

In 1944 private (read white only) primaries were outlawed.

In 1971 the voting age was dropped to 18 years of age, old enough to fight old enough to vote.

In short, in 1789, the people had no say in the presidential nominating process, only white males who owned property could vote (as long as they weren't Catholic or Jewish) and candidates to the U.S. Senate were selected by the state legislature or the governor with no input from the voting public.

By the way, the Constitution established the selection of the Senate by state governments for the expressed purpose of being a check against the whims of the popularly elected members of the House (so much for the Congress not listening to the "'will" of the people).

So, if American is moving towards, despotism and tyranny, we've got a long way to go before we become as despotic and tyrannical as the Founders intended.

I remember reading a book by Charles Mann called 1491 in which he states that the Founding Fathers were a bit influenced (to what degree-who knows) by a New York tribe called Seneca, i believe, near the Finger Lakes region. He goes on to state that across the political landscape nowadays, we have "ideological tribes".

Having said all that; the people in the town hall meetings hollering about tyranny and government in the same sentence should really be paranoid about corporate tryanny, in my opinion of course.

[djacques]

The OP is largely correct (although a few facts are omitted, e.g. women had the right to vote in a number of individual states before 1920).

My sense is that the Founders gave a lot more thought to the structure of government than to the precise extent of the franchise. Who qualified for the franchise was up to the states at the time, all of which set the exact boundaries between voters and non-voters according to the prevailing social standards of the time. It was not considered a federal matter. Even now, some voting qualifications differ among the states.

I don't agree with the common liberal view that greater public participation in voting is an intrinsic good, or that it is more likely to create a better government. While arbitrary characteristics like sex and race make no sense as barriers to the franchise, I personally am interested in any reforms that would idiot-proof the system. In my opinion, if a person doesn't know that there are three branches of government, 100 Senators and 435 Representatives, among other things, they're not the sort of person who belongs in a voting booth. If they can't name the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, they need to turn off their NASCAR race and crack a book once in awhile before they exercise the "right" to vote--a "right" which is not unlimited because it affects everyone else in the society (and beyond it).

[Geechie North]

Originally Posted by ovcatto

As I said, I understand you point, but it isn't germane to the point of the thread.

So, if there are only two majorparties, the PAC's of corporate America own both, then it's not germane to democracy??

Many of your basic misunderstandings about US politics circa 1973- present can be cleared up with a bit of research:

'The Power Game"by Hedrick Smith written in the 1990's is a great starting point.