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They were caught in Afhiganistan (or Iraq) pointing rifles at either civilians or U.S. troops, or setting up roadside bombs, or cutting off heads of your local politicians! They weren't detained because they were picking flowers.
The post by sporin directly refutes this claim. He has a source. You do not. The president and vice president don't count. There needs to be corroborating evidence of their claims.
The alternative to Gitmo is all out warfare, see WWII for historical example.
As long as we fight this battle with concern for human life, we will have non-uniformed combatants to detain. As long as the enemy remains cowardly, hiding within the women, children and mosques, we will detain them rather than kill them where they stand.
The sense of guilt some of you have displayed is amazing. These are matters of fact. The blood is on their hands, not yours. The alternative is the most horrible of outcomes. The radicals who wish to convert or destroy you display no guilt. There is the problem.
and my response to the cut-n-paste guy. I see your cut-n-paste and raise you another:
Also found a ton of links where detaines that were released were caught again planting bombs and firing at troops. Innocent, yeah, just like every prisoner in every U.S. jail is innocent.
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba– ….. These “detainees” are not innocent foot soldiers, or confused Afghan opium farmers drafted by the Taliban. They are Islamic fundamentalists from across the Middle East, rabid jihadists who have dedicated their lives to the destruction of America and Western civilization. Among the residents are al-Qaeda organizers, bomb makers, financial specialists, recruiters of suicide attackers, and just plain killers. Many of these men met frequently with Osama bin Laden. The terrorist Maad Al Qahtani, a Saudi who is a self-confessed collaborator with the September 11 hijackers, is one of many infamous captives.
In the opening salvos of the global war on terror, our forces took a lot of prisoners from the battlefield. Estimates are that more than 70,000 Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters were captured and screened. Of that number, approximately 800 were deemed of such high value for intelligence purposes, or such a severe threat in their own person, that they needed to be interrogated and confined in a secure locale from which they could not easily escape or be rescued. Welcome to the new Gitmo.
I was able to observe conditions at the detention facility, firsthand, at the end of June….. We were met planeside by Brigadier General Jay Hood, the commanding officer of Joint Task Force Gitmo, whose soldiers are responsible for the security, interrogation, housing, and oversight of all the terrorists confined there. General Hood and his staff fielded all questions and criticisms, and were very forthcoming.
….. While we observed absolutely no evidence of torture of prisoners at Gitmo, it is clear that the daily atmosphere is rife with harsh abuse: The prisoners are constantly assaulting the guards.
Our young military men and women routinely endure the vilest invective imaginable, including death threats that spill over to guards’ families. All soldiers and sailors working “inside the wire” have blacked out their name tags so that the detainees will not learn their identities. Before that step was taken the terrorists were threatening to tell their al-Qaeda pals still at large who the guards were. “We will look you up on the Internet,” the prisoners said. “We will find you and slaughter you and your family in your homes at night. We will cut your throats like sheep. We will drink the blood of the infidel.”
That is bad enough, but the terrorist prisoners throw more than words at the guards. On a daily basis, American soldiers carrying out their duties within the maximum-security camp are barraged with feces, urine, semen, and spit hurled by the detainees. Secretly fashioned weapons intended for use in attacking guards or fellow detainees are confiscated regularly. When food or other items are passed through the “bean hole”—an opening approximately 4 inches by 24 inches in the cell doors, the detainees have grabbed at the wrists and arms of the Americans feeding them and tried to break their bones.
When guards enter the cells to remove detainees for interrogation sessions, medical visits, or any number of reasons, detainees sometimes climb on the metal bunks and leap on the guards. They have crammed themselves under the bunks, requiring several guards to extract them. Some have attacked unsuspecting soldiers with steel chairs. Determined to inflict maximum damage, detainees have groped under the protective face masks of the guards, clawing their faces and trying to gouge eyes and tear mouths.
Keep in mind that our soldiers—young men and young women—are absolutely forbidden from responding in kind.
….. Nearly all of these hardened terrorists have been well coached on how to be an American captive. Given any opportunity, they will all claim torture and human rights violations. They have been schooled on counter-interrogation techniques, on how to construct and maintain a cover story, and other subterfuges to fool or deflect interrogators.
….. We asked Hood if he was possibly being too lenient with these men. “This system of rapport-building works,” Hood assures us. In support of the soft-handed approach, he cites an extraordinary amount of actionable intelligence that continues to flow out of the interrogation rooms of Gitmo.
….. Intelligence gleaned from Gitmo is blended with information from other sources to connect dots. We learned that one non-cooperative detainee had his cover penetrated just last month by having his photo identified by a freshly captured fighter in Afghanistan. Once confronted with his real identity, he began to talk.
It is important to keep in mind that these men, while exceedingly dangerous and even pathological in their desire to kill Westerners, are generally well-educated and broadly traveled. Several detainees have advanced degrees in law, engineering, and medicine from American and European schools like the University of London. Others are highly skilled technical experts with advanced training and knowledge of electronics and demolitions. (Some of these are contributing to our knowledge of al-Qaeda bombs found in Iraq.) Many of these men occupied the top al-Qaeda echelons, and met frequently with bin Laden.
A lot of these men came from middle-class or wealthy families. They come from 17 different countries, but a great many are Saudi Arabian. They are not driven by poverty, unemployment, or class deprivation. They are motivated by a virulent form of Islam that promotes jihad and death to Western civilization. They will kill Americans—including women and children—without conscience, for they are convinced that restoration of the Islamic caliphate is their sole mission on this Earth.
…..Universally, (the guards) are proud of their work, although somewhat disappointed that the American public is not more aware of the difficulties they undergo to keep us safe.
One young woman …., an Army private first class, was asked what she thought about rhetoric in the American media, and from the mouths of elected officials like Senators Richard Durbin (D-IL) and Ted Kennedy (D-MA), describing our service members at Guantanamo as “Nazis.” Frowning, she answered, “It hurts my feelings to hear that junk. We try to do as good a job as possible down here. These detainees are dangerous. They try to kill us every time we get close to them, and would certainly kill Americans if released…..”
Former Special Forces lieutenant colonel Gordon Cucullu is a frequent television commentator on military matters (Carolyn mentioned that their notes identified him as Green Berets.
Now to the final point: This may be the first war we have fought since The Revolutionary War where our soldiers have had to worry about harm to their families and relatives from enemy sleepers inside our own country. Maybe even more than media bias against the war, perhaps this unfortunately legitimate fear explains why we are not hearing as much about war heroics in Iraq and Afghanistan as we have heard in previous wars. It’s a real shame not to hear the stories, but it’s hard to argue against suppressing the news if discretion is necessary to keep loved ones safe.
I think anyone supporting our war in Iraq should look at their own moral compass, and study it as if it were the only tool out there.
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Originally Posted by caution
The alternative to Gitmo is all out warfare, see WWII for historical example.
As long as we fight this battle with concern for human life, we will have non-uniformed combatants to detain. As long as the enemy remains cowardly, hiding within the women, children and mosques, we will detain them rather than kill them where they stand.
The sense of guilt some of you have displayed is amazing. These are matters of fact. The blood is on their hands, not yours. The alternative is the most horrible of outcomes. The radicals who wish to convert or destroy you display no guilt. There is the problem.
Those aren't pictures of Gitmo, but of Abu Graib,....
HAHAHAHA...amazing. This isn't the first time i've been hoodwinked like this by someone taking an extreme liberal postion in a debate here. Thanks for calling them out. I thought this was turning into a good debate, but they just lost all credibility.
My cut-and-paste directly refutes your cut-and-paste... so which to believe? Honestly, the whole things should make us ALL pose questions at the very least.
My cut-and-paste directly refutes your cut-and-paste... so which to believe? Honestly, the whole things should make us ALL pose questions at the very least.
Those aren't pictures of Gitmo, but of Abu Graib, for which the offenders have been held accountable.
Those being released are not being released because they are "innocent", but because they were no longer deemed a threat, a big difference.
I sincerely apologize. (I certainly wasn't deliberately trying to hoodwink anyone--the name Abu Graib, at the site itself, was rather prominent.)
But the SECOND link was to the situation at Gitmo.
Guys, I don't want to get into a cut-and-paste war. You post your Freep stuff, I'll probably come up with something from the NYTimes or Commondreams or whatever.
The Guanatanamo stuff I am reading is pretty bad. This is from a British newspaper, a Ugandan prisoner was released from Gitmo
edited to add:
Aside from the shame of what's happened at detention sites is, to me, all the global goodwill we had after 9/11, that now just seems to be dwindling away. Obviously I did not (and do not) feel all warm and fuzzy towards Osama Bin Laden.
Last edited by BlueWillowPlate; 05-01-2007 at 12:27 PM..
Huh? I'm not left wing and I agree with much that has been said in this thread. This isn't about hating America. This about taking responsibility for our actions. Saying everything is their (terrorists or Muslims') fault is a pathetic excuse. I thought conservatives were about responsibility. Yet, when it comes to foreign policy, conservatives turn a blind eye to what our government actually does. Hypocrisy.
And you know this how? This thread is about those falsely imprisoned. I'm sorry, but if you believe all the lines this administration is feeding you regarding how these people were supposedly detained...
You seem to distrust the government in so many ways, Nirvana-Guy, yet you believe this administration is doing everything right with these wars? That doesn't add up.
And guess what? If we can't prove they're guilty, then they aren't guilty. That is, unless we are hypocrites.
You keep saying these people were caught planting bombs or shooting at troops. Pardon me if I don't believe you. I am certain there are many detainees who were taken from their homes because they were suspected to be terrorists. If you don't think our government has done this...I call that naivety.
Yes, yes, yes. You keep repeating this line that's been fed to you. We're hated because we keep meddling in their affairs. We started it.
Collateral damage means nothing to you, I assume. That is, until the collateral damage takes someone you love. You better hope you're never put into that situation, because it would expose you, yet again, as a hypocrite.
So only the US needs to take responsibility for our actions, while the militant Muslim nations continue to act recklessly and have no accountability? I have noticed that those in the far left only demand accountability from the USA and not from rogue nations like Iran and Syria or Palestine.
Yes, I am not a big fan of the Bush admn, but for people to come out here and make unsubstantiated claims about people being detained even after found not-guilty, people being innocent and still being held.... oh come on. That is irresponsible and a show of your hate for the USA. Very anti-American.
No, you are innocent until proven guilty ONLY if you commit a crime in the United States of America. In the countries where these people were captured (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc) these people are guilty until proven innocent. These people were CAUGHT outside of the jurdisdiction of the United States, therefore, they cannot demand rights under the US Constitution.
Now, if the terrorist is caught INSIDE the USA, yes, then he would have rights under the US Constitution, as the alleged crime took place inside the US and under US laws. You may not like it, but that is the law. And in legal terms, there is something called jursidiction and the jurirsdiction where the crimes the Guantanamo people are being held for is OUTSIDE the USA and that means they have no rights under the US Constitution.
So really, your argument is bogus in terms of "innocent until proven guilty". That is not like that in other countries where the terrorists were detained at. Even in Mexico, you know, that country just south of the USA, you are guilty until proven innocent.
WE started it?? So the US attacked itself on 9/11??? Oh please.... that is very anti-American. Very typical. Are you in Berkley? San Francisco? Boston?
So only the US needs to take responsibility for our actions, while the militant Muslim nations continue to act recklessly and have no accountability? I have noticed that those in the far left only demand accountability from the USA and not from rogue nations like Iran and Syria or Palestine.
"First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
This may be a verse from the Bible, but it is applicable in many parts of life.
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Yes, I am not a big fan of the Bush admn, but for people to come out here and make unsubstantiated claims about people being detained even after found not-guilty, people being innocent and still being held.... oh come on. That is irresponsible and a show of your hate for the USA. Very anti-American.
Yes, you're right. I hate the US.
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No, you are innocent until proven guilty ONLY if you commit a crime in the United States of America. In the countries where these people were captured (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc) these people are guilty until proven innocent. These people were CAUGHT outside of the jurdisdiction of the United States, therefore, they cannot demand rights under the US Constitution.
Using your line of reasoning, we can round up any people on this planet and claim they are terrorists, then hold them indefinitely. The problem with what the Bush administration has done is that it's removed all accountability. Who is Bush accountable to, for this? No one. It's lawlessness.
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Now, if the terrorist is caught INSIDE the USA, yes, then he would have rights under the US Constitution, as the alleged crime took place inside the US and under US laws. You may not like it, but that is the law. And in legal terms, there is something called jursidiction and the jurirsdiction where the crimes the Guantanamo people are being held for is OUTSIDE the USA and that means they have no rights under the US Constitution.
Mmmhmm.
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So really, your argument is bogus in terms of "innocent until proven guilty". That is not like that in other countries where the terrorists were detained at. Even in Mexico, you know, that country just south of the USA, you are guilty until proven innocent.
We are not Mexico. We are the US.
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WE started it?? So the US attacked itself on 9/11??? Oh please.... that is very anti-American. Very typical. Are you in Berkley? San Francisco? Boston?
It started long, long before 9/11. It started at the end of WWII (US involvement).
Last edited by LeavingFlorida05; 05-01-2007 at 01:03 PM..
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