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the flag of the kkk is the american flag . not the confederate flag . the confederate flag wasn't used by them until 1960-1965. the 100yr anniversary of the civil war .why they still use it today not sure . the nazi 's i have no idea why they use it at all.
You really have no idea why the KKK neo-nazi groups would identify with the confederate flag? Really "Proud and White" you can't figure out why 2 groups that make no denial of their bigotry would see the confederate flag as a symbol they can relate to?
I realize all areas have there problems and that racial tensions and injustices have gone on practicly everywhere. I'm not saying the north is good and the south is evil. Some are making this this the argument to attack the north and get away from the real question first posed.
I was always taught you have the freedom to say pretty much what you want and do pretty much what you want BUT if what you say or do offends a group of people you should seriously consider not saying or doing it. Ancestors of slaves make up a sizable percent of the population. To keep up a symbol of a time when one group owned another just seems groutesk. Have any of you confederate supporters tried to see it from someone elses point of view?
You really have no idea why the KKK neo-nazi groups would identify with the confederate flag? Really "Proud and White" you can't figure out why 2 groups that make no denial of their bigotry would see the confederate flag as a symbol they can relate to?
I realize all areas have there problems and that racial tensions and injustices have gone on practicly everywhere. I'm not saying the north is good and the south is evil. Some are making this this the argument to attack the north and get away from the real question first posed.
I was always taught you have the freedom to say pretty much what you want and do pretty much what you want BUT if what you say or do offends a group of people you should seriously consider not saying or doing it. Ancestors of slaves make up a sizable percent of the population. To keep up a symbol of a time when one group owned another just seems groutesk. Have any of you confederate supporters tried to see it from someone elses point of view?
The fact that someone else has decided to get offended b/c of something I do is just another example of how some people go around wearing the politics of grievance on their sleeves at all times. If I spent my days running around as the PC Police, I guess I could stay offended 24/7. I don't spend my days judging everyone around me unless someone is infringing on my rights as a citizen. You have the right to get offended if you want to but why you think I should give a rat's ass about it is something entirely different. Unless you are exposing yourself in public, I doubt there is very much at all that I am gonna be offended about as far as your personal actions. May I ask why you find it so important to have a list of things that offend you? Just angry and need to find something to vent it on?
"History is written by the victors." ~ Winston Churchill
Well, here you have a chance to see a bit of history from the perspective of the vanquished.
Those of us who grew up in the North don't really think about the Civil War except as an event in our nation's distant past. But in the South, where much of the war was fought, and where much damage was inflicted, and where Reconstruction took its own economic toll, it is not so easily forgotten. You cannot begin to understand the South today without understanding its history.
While there are certainly modern day racists who have adopted Civil War symbols and attempted to distort their history and meaning, it does not mean that everything about the Civil War is itself racist.
A good book that gives an objective view of the Civil War and the events and mindsets leading up to it, including both Northern and Southern views, is "April, 1865", by Jay Winik. It was a good read.
Even in my home state of New Jersey, most people don't realize that NJ was a southern-sympathizing state that sided with the Union only because of location, and that slavery here was not completely outlawed until the 13th Amendment was passed at the end of the war.
A good book that gives an objective view of the Civil War and the events and mindsets leading up to it, including both Northern and Southern views, is "April, 1865", by Jay Winik. It was a good read.
Even in my home state of New Jersey, most people don't realize that NJ was a southern-sympathizing state that sided with the Union only because of location, and that slavery here was not completely outlawed until the 13th Amendment was passed at the end of the war.
Thanks so much for the reference. I am gonna order the book.
What is so sad to me is that anyone would feel that a Southerner (or anyone else, for that matter) would celebrate the heinous institution of slavery! Why would a person make that assumption - or actually think that a fellow citizen would find enslaving another human being is acceptable?
When folks say something to me about "glorifying" the Civil War . . . I get sick that people could have had their brains so polluted by stereotypes about Southerners that they would think - for even a second - that anyone would approve of the institution of slavery. This is especially upsetting when one realizes that there is slavery going on right now in other parts of the world! And it isn't always enslavement to extract labor - some folks are enslaved as sexual slaves - including minors.
People need to stop the madness with the stereotypes about Southerners.
The Capitol has a few statues, confederate dead, women of the confederacy exc. Why? Why are people so happy to keep open such a terrible chapter of our history? Its not like anyone directly affected is still around except black people who would still be slaves if the confederates had there way. Maybe its just my northern education, but this stuff seems odd. Why don't people demand this stuff be taken down? How do people get away with bumperstickers and flags that have such racist sentiments to them? It's like everyone here just accepts it even if they don't agree with it.
Your northern education hasn't taught you the truth about the war of northern aggression.
You really have no idea why the KKK neo-nazi groups would identify with the confederate flag? Really "Proud and White" you can't figure out why 2 groups that make no denial of their bigotry would see the confederate flag as a symbol they can relate to?
I realize all areas have there problems and that racial tensions and injustices have gone on practicly everywhere. I'm not saying the north is good and the south is evil. Some are making this this the argument to attack the north and get away from the real question first posed.
I was always taught you have the freedom to say pretty much what you want and do pretty much what you want BUT if what you say or do offends a group of people you should seriously consider not saying or doing it. Ancestors of slaves make up a sizable percent of the population. To keep up a symbol of a time when one group owned another just seems groutesk. Have any of you confederate supporters tried to see it from someone elses point of view?
Originally, you weren't asking about just the flag, you were asking about memorials and other ways the Southerners honored their past.
The KKK did not exist at the end of the Civil War. They came later.
The Nazis did not exist in the 1800's. They came later.
That two groups adopted a flag for their own purposes does not negate the meanings that others have attached to that flag. That Southerners persist in using that flag despite the connotations might be seen as a testament to their stubborness and strong feelings on the subject itself.
And you might give some thought that people who perceive that the war memorials and other Southern homages to its Civil War fallen is a demonstration of humanity, and a sense of continuity in history are not necessarily Confederate supporters. There most certainly are some racists still extant, not only living in Southern States, but all around our country. And there are many Southerners who may wish to honor the millions who died, and who think it is important for this country to remember the tragedy of Civil War, when not only was the country divided, but families were divided and destroyed. Those same Southerners do not want slavery back. Those same Southerners are not advocating secession today. They are as loyal to the United States as are you. It's not disloyalty to refuse to whitewash history. It's not disloyalty to see that the Civil War was not honorable, not from the South's defense of slavery, not from the North's play for economic and political power. It's not disloyalty to say that Lincoln's grandfather owned slaves, and that Lincoln had not intention of ending slavery. It's not disloyalty to study the march to conflict, and to note the missteps on both sides.
You argue that the South should simply be silenced, because their version of events are found offensive to some people. Are people offended because they find that the version of history they have believed may not have completely and honestly described that history? Would you rather believe in a fairy tale, or something approaching the truth? I say approaching, because we will never get the complete, unvarnished truth. As soon as any event occurs, once past, we have only incomplete versions of that truth. The historical markers, the memorials, the diaries and letters, are all glimpses we have of the past. And some of those glimpses clearly contradict the version of that period that we have from the victors. Sometimes they gibe a bit better with the version that we have from the losers.
So when you ask why can't the South put the past behind it? The reality of the matter is that the past is never left behind. We drag the past around with us, hidden baggage in our personal family histories, clues in our family and community traditions, crosses we bear from the cemeteries strewn across our country, linguistic traces, prejudices and biases, the jokes we tell, the cultural mores we obey. The question isn't why can't the South leave the past behind, the question is why can't the South just submit itself to the North's version of the war. And the answer is that the losers never submit to the winner's version of history. It's just that over time, the losers' versions are overwhelmed by the victors' versions. The losers' versions get lost over time. The losers' versions don't make it into history books. The memorials get re-dedicated. The families die out or move away that once kept the graves neat and tidy.
The poverty that crippled the South after the war and Reconstruction kept a lot of people in place. People who were still defiant, people who constructed memorials, people who refused to forget. Today, with a population that is so much more mobile and liquid, there are people moving to the South who value their own heritage, but don't empathize with the idea that the Southern heritage has value as well. There are Southerners whose families have moved away, and who've taken on the values of their new homes, and now disparage their Southern heritage.
The Civil War wasn't just about slavery. It wasn't just about states' rights. It was about a country that was divided at its very inception, between different traditions, different values, different appreciations. And that divide grew and coalesced around the two major issues of the day. A war resulted, and one side won. But the different traditions, different values, different ways of life didn't cease to exist. One side won, but there was never a reconciliation. To the North that reconciliation might have been pointless. To the South that lack of reconciliation meant decades of crippling poverty, and a new heritage of being labeled, backwards, racist, uneducated, hicks. To the South the new heritage was systematic marginalization. And like any group of people who are marginalized, the reasons for marginalization are transformed into markers of pride.
You really have no idea why the KKK neo-nazi groups would identify with the confederate flag? Really "Proud and White" you can't figure out why 2 groups that make no denial of their bigotry would see the confederate flag as a symbol they can relate to?
I realize all areas have there problems and that racial tensions and injustices have gone on practicly everywhere. I'm not saying the north is good and the south is evil. Some are making this this the argument to attack the north and get away from the real question first posed.
I was always taught you have the freedom to say pretty much what you want and do pretty much what you want BUT if what you say or do offends a group of people you should seriously consider not saying or doing it. Ancestors of slaves make up a sizable percent of the population. To keep up a symbol of a time when one group owned another just seems groutesk. Have any of you confederate supporters tried to see it from someone elses point of view?
because the kkk used the u.s. flag as their flag b4 the 1960's . nazi are not a american group and shouldnot use the confedrate flag.most traditional kkk groups use u.s.flag. not confedrate flag i hope this clears things up for you
because the kkk used the u.s. flag as their flag b4 the 1960's . nazi are not a american group and shouldnot use the confedrate flag.most traditional kkk groups use u.s.flag. not confedrate flag i hope this clears things up for you
You certainly know a great deal more about the KKK than I do, Proud and White.
I have learned something today. It is racist of me to hate racists. I guess I just have to accept the KKK and confederates rights to think how they want to think about their fellow man.
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