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Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug Life
A plane was hijacked in Mexico today by a Christian Nutjob who thought the arbitrary date of 9-9-09 was 666 upside down and that Christ was coming. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090909/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_hijacking - broken link)
See? It's not just Arabs who are nutjob terrorists...Christians are too!
He claimed he had 3 partners in the hijacking...later it was revealed that they were "The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost".
I know that. There are many Christians who are as nutty as the Muslims are. That is why it is important to keep such people away from the levers of power- and the airport too apparently!
Agreed. Beyond that fact, however, the greater question remains...how BIG are these organizatons? How popular are they in Christian circles? How many Christians feel an affinity for this sort of behavior? How "Christian" does the average Christian feel these people are? Are these fringe groups seen as 'advancing the cause of Christianity'? Not trying to be 'picky' here, but these people's mere existence means little, unless it's put in context. When these wackos 'do their dirty deeds', how many Christians cheer and praise them? When they're caught and arrested, how do the "Christian" legal authorities treat them?
Lastly, I'll remind you that NO civil government, today, anywhere, (with the possible exception of The Vatican), defines itself as a "Christian nation". There are no Christian theocracies, and haven't been for centuries.
There ARE a few 'nutty' misguided souls who identify themselves as 'Christians'....but so what? Others obey the call of Charles Manson...or Napoleon...or the neighbor's dog. That doesn't mean that society accepts these people as anything other than just plain "nuts". No followers...no 'hero worship'...no martyrdom....just plain "nuts". Can't say the same about other terrorists, unfortunately...(if we COULD, this argument wouldn't be taking place).
Firstly, you misjudge, thanks to the MSN, the support Islamic Terrorist organizations have among the general Muslim global population. Remember, AQ kills Muslims too. And how often does one hear of the activities of, say, the National Liberation Front of Tripura? And why not?
Secondly, you forget two major considerations. Fundamentalist Islam exists in areas still pretty much in the Stone Age and/or just clawing their way into the modern world. And two, Islam is about half a millenia behind Christianity in age, and actions. They act now like your religion did 500 years ago.
Thirdly, the activities of your relgiion 500 years ago in no way, shape or form excuses that behavior. "Time heals all wounds" they say, but the scars remain. The only thing keeping your religion honest at this point in time is the secular nature of western Law.
Lastly, ask many a Christian in this country if we are a "Christian Nation", and guess which answer you'll get.
Secondly, you forget two major considerations. Fundamentalist Islam exists in areas still pretty much in the Stone Age and/or just clawing their way into the modern world. And two, Islam is about half a millenia behind Christianity in age, and actions. They act now like your religion did 500 years ago.
Thirdly, the activities of your relgiion 500 years ago in no way, shape or form excuses that behavior. "Time heals all wounds" they say, but the scars remain. The only thing keeping your religion honest at this point in time is the secular nature of western Law.
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Precisely...my point exactly, many times, in the past...on this forum. What happened 500 years ago, and what happened last week, IS profoundly different. It's a MUCH different thing to be the great-grandson of a pirate..or a child molester....or a bank robber....than to be one yourself. Good point.
Th 'secular Western law' you refer to wasn't instituted DESPITE Christians (or Jews)...nor was it 'sneaked into place behind their backs' by some group of atheists...it was largely instituted by those western, liberal, thinking members of the Judeo-Christian culture, who, RECOGNIZING the evil of what they were witnessing in their own culture(s), decided on their own volition to CLEAN UP THEIR ACT...and DO something about it.
Islam is "half a millenium behind Christianity in age, and actions"? GREAT! Exactly! Well stated!......So when they 'mature', find a way to distance themselves from their own 'wackos', begin to hold a civil discourse with the REST of the world, and learn to be less hateful to their neighbors, then they'll be taken seriously as "a religion of Peace". Until then, however, they have a WHOLE lot of convincing to do. I suggest they get busy. Some of them already are....hopefully, others will join them.
Meanwhile, I know of NO serious Christian 'group' which has ANY sort of credibility at ALL, which expresses "hatred" of Muslims. It's more like fear and mistrust....and frankly, I think they have a point. Christians don't "go to Heaven" for blowing people up....quite the contrary!...they go the OTHER way.
Precisely...my point exactly, many times, in the past...on this forum. What happened 500 years ago, and what happened last week, IS profoundly different. It's a MUCH different thing to be the great-grandson of a pirate..or a child molester....or a bank robber....than to be one yourself. Good point.
Th 'secular Western law' you refer to wasn't instituted DESPITE Christians (or Jews)...nor was it 'sneaked into place behind their backs' by some group of atheists...it was largely instituted by those western, liberal, thinking members of the Judeo-Christian culture, who, RECOGNIZING the evil of what they were witnessing in their own culture(s), decided on their own volition to CLEAN UP THEIR ACT...and DO something about it.
Islam is "half a millenium behind Christianity in age, and actions"? GREAT! Exactly! Well stated!......So when they 'mature', find a way to distance themselves from their own 'wackos', begin to hold a civil discourse with the REST of the world, and learn to be less hateful to their neighbors, then they'll be taken seriously as "a religion of Peace". Until then, however, they have a WHOLE lot of convincing to do. I suggest they get busy. Some of them already are....hopefully, others will join them.
Meanwhile, I know of NO serious Christian 'group' which has ANY sort of credibility at ALL, which expresses "hatred" of Muslims. It's more like fear and mistrust....and frankly, I think they have a point. Christians don't "go to Heaven" for blowing people up....quite the contrary!...they go the OTHER way.
Thanks for making my point.
You just made the same arguments Muslims can make, except for the age thing. YOU say Christians go to your hell when the one's blowing themselves up and/or killing people think THEY are going to heaven for doing your "god's work".
And we are not speaking of individuals, we are speaking of the religions enwhole, or at least I was.
Also, those laws only started to creep into western nations AFTER the Enlightenist Period, which broke the back of the power the Church held on Europe. Were some "liberal" Christians involved in creating those laws? Certainly, but the secular humanists were far more active.
Also, there are nearly one and a half billion muslims globally. You are attempting to say that they, each and every one, support the radicals and hard liners among their religion. Is Turkey, a primarily Muslim nation with a secular government, unreasonable? How about Egypt? Algeria? Ethiopia?
You just made the same arguments Also, there are nearly one and a half billion muslims globally. You are attempting to say that they, each and every one, support the radicals and hard liners among their religion. Is Turkey, a primarily Muslim nation with a secular government, unreasonable? How about Egypt? Algeria? Ethiopia?
No, I'm NOT attempting to say they're all supportive...not at all. What I'm saying, is what I've said before...that from a WESTERN viewpoint..(and yes, my viewpoint is Western), Muslims as a GROUP...for whatever reason...have done a singularly poor job up to NOW, in convincing the REST of us that they, indeed, disavow the actions of the 'bad apples' in their midst. SOME of this may be cultural misunderstanding..but Westerners do have a culture, and they ARE capable of misunderstanding things. Sorry if that's not what people want to hear...but just as the West frequently "annoys" the Muslim world, it's ALSO the case that Muslims (and their motives) can, on occasion, be hard for westerners to empathize with.
I'm reminded of a 3-party interview conducted by Ted Koppel shorly after 9-11. Koppel was connected by sattelite with 3 Muslim 'spokesman'...One (as I recall) in DC, one in Chicago, and one (I believe) in Europe. They attempted to explain the 'distance' between mainstream Islam and the suicide 9-11 bombers, with very limited success. It just sounded sort of evasive...lots of "well, you see, it's REALLY not what it LOOKS like" etc etc etc. They just didn't seem willing to condemn the violence in any point-blank, convincing way. Lots of 'dancing around' the issue.
Eventually, Koppel appeared to get a bit frustrated, and asked them if, by any chance, they were actually a bit FEARFUL of being any more critical of the 'bombers', in that doing so MIGHT possibly put them...(OR their families)...in danger of some sort of 'relatiatory' violence from their own community (!). This produced sputters of denial, but even MORE evasion...lots of squirming, some rambling statements, but no real 'yes' or 'no' answer at ALL. They simply wouldn't answer that question in any clear and concise way. The interview ended shortly thereafter, and all concerned seemed eager to get it over with.
Conclusions? What was I, (as a westerner) supposed to conclude from this interview? From MY point of view, I was left disappointed. I WANTED these guys to 'distance' themselves from people I saw as 'evil mass murderers'..and they failed to do so in any convincing way. That may be my OWN cultural shortsightedness..or not. I can only speak for what I see, and what my common sense tells me...and what I saw, was that these three guys weren't REALLY all too upset about 9-11, and that they couldn't seem to work up any particular 'outrage' over it.
Do I have all the answers? No...but I think I have a FEW....and to this point, as I said, Islam, AS A RELIGION, has done a very POOR job of disavowing its own violent 'fellow travelers'. FAR too few of these guys are ever prosecuted, and FAR too many of them are idolized by large segments of the populace as 'heroes' or 'martyrs'. Even the 'Lockerbie bomber', suffering cancer and recently released by British authorities on humantiarian grounds, has apparently returned to Libya as a celebrated 'hero'. From a Western point of view, that's exceedingly difficult to understand.
I still need a LOT more convincing, I'm afraid, before I put Christian 'wackos' on a par with those in the Muslim world. It's a matter of degree.
No, I'm NOT attempting to say they're all supportive...not at all. What I'm saying, is what I've said before...that from a WESTERN viewpoint..(and yes, my viewpoint is Western), Muslims as a GROUP...for whatever reason...have done a singularly poor job up to NOW, in convincing the REST of us that they, indeed, disavow the actions of the 'bad apples' in their midst. SOME of this may be cultural misunderstanding..but Westerners do have a culture, and they ARE capable of misunderstanding things. Sorry if that's not what people want to hear...but just as the West frequently "annoys" the Muslim world, it's ALSO the case that Muslims (and their motives) can, on occasion, be hard for westerners to empathize with.
I'm reminded of a 3-party interview conducted by Ted Koppel shorly after 9-11. Koppel was connected by sattelite with 3 Muslim 'spokesman'...One (as I recall) in DC, one in Chicago, and one (I believe) in Europe. They attempted to explain the 'distance' between mainstream Islam and the suicide 9-11 bombers, with very limited success. It just sounded sort of evasive...lots of "well, you see, it's REALLY not what it LOOKS like" etc etc etc. They just didn't seem willing to condemn the violence in any point-blank, convincing way. Lots of 'dancing around' the issue.
Eventually, Koppel appeared to get a bit frustrated, and asked them if, by any chance, they were actually a bit FEARFUL of being any more critical of the 'bombers', in that doing so MIGHT possibly put them...(OR their families)...in danger of some sort of 'relatiatory' violence from their own community (!). This produced sputters of denial, but even MORE evasion...lots of squirming, some rambling statements, but no real 'yes' or 'no' answer at ALL. They simply wouldn't answer that question in any clear and concise way. The interview ended shortly thereafter, and all concerned seemed eager to get it over with.
Conclusions? What was I, (as a westerner) supposed to conclude from this interview? From MY point of view, I was left disappointed. I WANTED these guys to 'distance' themselves from people I saw as 'evil mass murderers'..and they failed to do so in any convincing way. That may be my OWN cultural shortsightedness..or not. I can only speak for what I see, and what my common sense tells me...and what I saw, was that these three guys weren't REALLY all too upset about 9-11, and that they couldn't seem to work up any particular 'outrage' over it.
Do I have all the answers? No...but I think I have a FEW....and to this point, as I said, Islam, AS A RELIGION, has done a very POOR job of disavowing its own violent 'fellow travelers'. FAR too few of these guys are ever prosecuted, and FAR too many of them are idolized by large segments of the populace as 'heroes' or 'martyrs'. Even the 'Lockerbie bomber', suffering cancer and recently released by British authorities on humantiarian grounds, has apparently returned to Libya as a celebrated 'hero'. From a Western point of view, that's exceedingly difficult to understand.
I still need a LOT more convincing, I'm afraid, before I put Christian 'wackos' on a par with those in the Muslim world. It's a matter of degree.
Thank you for clarifying.
I, myself, saw the interviews much like what one might see of someone who lives in a gang heavy neighborhood in LA trying to speak out against the gangs, knowing they might get a molitov on the porch or a shotgun blast through the window.
And while many Christians would seek to loudly distance themselves from Christian terrorists, after tha fact, how many people KNOW ABOUT those terrorist groups currently operating in the US, or abroad? How many Christians truely know the numbers of abortion providers assaulted, killed, and intimidated here in the US, or the number of bombings and fake anthrax letters, as well as other types of attacks we now call terrorisim, that occur on an almost daily basis?
Certainly the MUslim world could do better at speaking out and denouncing their radicals, even if most Muslims live in areas of the world those terrorists have easy access to.
But we have our very own here in the US that need to be addressed, and they are not Muslims.
I, myself, saw the interviews much like what one might see of someone who lives in a gang heavy neighborhood in LA trying to speak out against the gangs, knowing they might get a molitov on the porch or a shotgun blast through the window.
And while many Christians would seek to loudly distance themselves from Christian terrorists, after tha fact, how many people KNOW ABOUT those terrorist groups currently operating in the US, or abroad? How many Christians truely know the numbers of abortion providers assaulted, killed, and intimidated here in the US, or the number of bombings and fake anthrax letters, as well as other types of attacks we now call terrorisim, that occur on an almost daily basis?
Certainly the MUslim world could do better at speaking out and denouncing their radicals, even if most Muslims live in areas of the world those terrorists have easy access to.
But we have our very own here in the US that need to be addressed, and they are not Muslims.
Thanks for explaining....I'll conclude by saying that the "Christian" world today is mostly a secular society, and MANY 'terrorists' and other 'wackos', who MAY have been raised in a 'Christian' household, are not terrorists for any 'Christian' cause. Relatively few, I'd guess, cite religious reasons, or call on "Jesus" to back their efforts. Probably most of the 'abortionist killers' fit this description, true..... but in other areas, many of these people just hate things....big government, 'foreigners', the UN, the 'trilateral commission', etc. Sure, there's a backward, isolationist mindset going on..but I don't see these people as specifically pushing some 'Christian' agenda, nor using religious tracts or verses. SOME do....most do not, IMO.
Christians are instructed in their "holy" bible to murder persons who do not believe in their god. Why haven't we heard more about this? Because many Christians are content to ignore certain parts of their bible while obsessing about others. And what of those who do not ignore such parts of their "sacred" text? We call them extremists.
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Sure, there's a backward, isolationist mindset going on..but I don't see these people as specifically pushing some 'Christian' agenda, nor using religious tracts or verses. SOME do....most do not, IMO.
