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I have saturated myself in politics since just after high school; it is just something that has always appealed to my passion for history, debate, and the market place of ideas. I have always loved reading things from the era of our founding fathers as there was a great deal of eloquence and reasoned thought that was placed in their language that resonated in my ears like the poetic musings of ancient philosophers. Their genius lay not just what they put forth, but that they understood that they could not account for everything, and words and ideas are not things carved in stone but instead written in sands on a beach.
While through our nations history, we have met far more difficult and trying times than we are facing today, one would not know it if they were to peer across the landscape of what passes for discussion today. The extreme level of vitriol, emotionally charged and reactionary commentary from media, a political establishment which has become more concerned with self preservation than progress and long term vision or our nation. Worst of all, a public that is willing to bypass reason and regress into an oubliette of inanity and a level of banality befitting a small child having a tantrum.
We’ve traded in our market place of ideas for neener neener and pants on fire.
Do not kid yourself and be so naïve as to think it is merely about Republican verses Democrat, the importance lay more in how people engage in discourse with each other, and with their relationship to government; it is up and down, not left and right. One can have passionate feelings on issues without resorting to hyperbole, we can discuss without objectifying each other, and we can appeal to reason. So why do we abandon this course in favor of intellectually disingenuous rock throwing in the swamps of ignorance? Have we become so mentally lazy or apathetic as to abandon the principles and ideas that all those before us have worked so hard to achieve? If so, then it is truly a sad time as much as it is a difficult one.
Death panels and truthers, fascist-socialists-commie pinkos, Hitler, Stalin, Marx, and Mao, He said, she said, the sky is falling, kill grandma with a sock full of stem cells, war is peace and peace is hate, buy now and let your children pay later, 0 down-0 interest-100% returns, your momma dresses you funny while watching Olberman and your dad beats the dog with dead kittens while watching Beck. This is what we now aspire to and this is how a nation dies, not from force of arms at the gates of the castle but from rot within the walls and poisoned wells in which we lap from with a smile.
The only positive aspect of our national dialog that I can find today, is that more people now than ever before, are engaged. While I wish it were more than mere rock throwing, at least people are taking part in something that they have too long neglected.
Thank you TN. We will always have the extremists out there who will not debate with anyone. I believe most of us are level headed and can listen to and learn from the many different viewpoints present in America and the world. Why do we not?
Too many people in our nation are obstinate to opening their eyes and ears to the fact that what works in some people's lives may not work in others'. Instead of embracing the diversity it is assailed. Instead of trying to understand we shut our minds down. This has to end on all sides or regression will take a firm hold.
I have thought about this a great deal and have sought reasons why it appears we have allowed discourse to regress as it has. I can only think of a few reasons off hand though. Our educational systems are based in teaching children what to think instead of how to think. We are fortunate enough to live in prosperous and comfortable times and have had to deal with very little hardships as have people in the past. (WWII, WWI, Great Depression, Civil War, etc...) The arrival of the "Me" generation during the 60's and has remained pervasive ever since. The rise of serial sensationalism in media, be it news, entertainment or sports. Individual exceptionalism where by everyone believes that anything wrong is because of "the other guy", leading to a kind of social detachment and responsibility to our fellow countrymen. Lets not forget the obvious that is our current difficult times.
Whatever the causes, I can only hope that reasoned minds prevail in the end.
One can have passionate feelings on issues without resorting to hyperbole, we can discuss without objectifying each other, and we can appeal to reason. So why do we abandon this course in favor of intellectually disingenuous rock throwing in the swamps of ignorance? Have we become so mentally lazy or apathetic as to abandon the principles and ideas that all those before us have worked so hard to achieve? If so, then it is truly a sad time as much as it is a difficult one.
The internet and cable TV.
The internet has allowed everyone to comment publicly, whereas folks used to generally keep their thoughts more to themselves, or express to a few friends.
Politicians and the media have picked up many of the expressed sentiments and have now allowed them to drive many discussions. Things such as cable TV have created much available time, and broadcasters seek "underserved customers".
Such is the evolution of technology and communication.
Frankly, it isn't all bad, just different. The thoughts were always there anyway, now folks can just make them public.
The internet has allowed everyone to comment publicly, whereas folks used to generally keep their thoughts more to themselves, or express to a few friends.
Politicians and the media have picked up many of the expressed sentiments and have now allowed them to drive many discussions. Things such as cable TV have created much available time, and broadcasters seek "underserved customers".
Such is the evolution of technology and communication.
Frankly, it isn't all bad, just different. The thoughts were always there anyway, now folks can just make them public.
An excellent observation, and ironically one that another fellow with whom I have discussions mentioned as well.
While I certainly realize that in the days of our founding and up until pretty much the early 1990's, only those who wrote and spoke with some eloquence made it to print or on television. Bob the ditch digger with an 8th grade education wasn't a normal guest on Jim Lehrer or interviewed by Walter Cronkite.
With that in mind, I can understand this type of discourse from the public, however when it comes to media and government, I am at a loss for an explanation other than appealing to basic emotion for the sake of profit.
An excellent observation, and ironically one that another fellow with whom I have discussions mentioned as well.
While I certainly realize that in the days of our founding and up until pretty much the early 1990's, only those who wrote and spoke with some eloquence made it to print or on television. Bob the ditch digger with an 8th grade education wasn't a normal guest on Jim Lehrer or interviewed by Walter Cronkite.
With that in mind, I can understand this type of discourse from the public, however when it comes to media and government, I am at a loss for an explanation other than appealing to basic emotion for the sake of profit.
I have a bit of an offbeat view of that issue, likely few would agree with my sentiments.
What I think has happened is that with all of the public discussions by those who never had public forums, many folks pile on with the "me too" sentiment. This raises a chorus of "noise" concerning specific positions on public issues, and the media often picks up this groundswell, frequently because it is contained in newspaper article comments.
Add in the easy ability to blog, and the offshoot of gathering of blogs in places such as Huffington, and you see some organization to the groundswells.
As far a politicians go, they or their staff members read this stuff too. At the local government level it can have an immediate impact on decision making, especially if the groundswell is to throw everyone out because they spent tax dollars on a Delonghi Magnifica 4400 espresso machine for the office.
One would hope we vote in officials with the intelligence to separate themselves from drivel, but many aren't much better than irrational partisans. Even those decent folks who are elected to local offices often get caught up in the whipsaw of public opinion over time, as their past decisions become the subject of much anguished discussions.
As I stated, kind of neither bad nor good in my view, just different.
I have a bit of an offbeat view of that issue, likely few would agree with my sentiments.
What I think has happened is that with all of the public discussions by those who never had public forums, many folks pile on with the "me too" sentiment. This raises a chorus of "noise" concerning specific positions on public issues, and the media often picks up this groundswell, frequently because it is contained in newspaper article comments.
Add in the easy ability to blog, and the offshoot of gathering of blogs in places such as Huffington, and you see some organization to the groundswells.
As far a politicians go, they or their staff members read this stuff too. At the local government level it can have an immediate impact on decision making, especially if the groundswell is to throw everyone out because they spent tax dollars on a Delonghi Magnifica 4400 espresso machine for the office.
One would hope we vote in officials with the intelligence to separate themselves from drivel, but many aren't much better than irrational partisans. Even those decent folks who are elected to local offices often get caught up in the whipsaw of public opinion over time, as their past decisions become the subject of much anguished discussions.
As I stated, kind of neither bad nor good in my view, just different.
A bit of a conundrum don't you think? I mean in order to vote in those officials who are intelligent would first require some level of intelligence or at least thoughtful engagement to start with. If John Q Citizen so struggles with measured discourse, then the chances of them electing one that is capable is often chance. After all, we tend to vote for those who seem the most like us.
Something I struggle with is the fact that we are a Republic, not a Democracy and it isn't the will of the people that matters on any given issue at the time. We elect people to make decisions for us, hopefully people who will make the best and most wise decisions for the sake of the state instead of personal motivations. So much for that hope.
On this note, I can point to of all people, Sen. Byrd who stated during the run up to the Iraq war in his famous speech.
The general unease surrounding this war is not just due to "orange alert." There is a pervasive sense of rush and risk and too many questions unanswered. How long will we be in Iraq? What will be the cost? What is the ultimate mission? How great is the danger at home?
A pall has fallen over the Senate Chamber. We avoid our solemn duty to debate the one topic on the minds of all Americans, even while scores of thousands of our sons and daughters faithfully do their duty in Iraq.
He had it right, there was little debate and discussion. To the extent that there was is now in retrospect, little more than sound bytes, propagandized pontifications and timidity of those who had wisdom and chose silence.
let's not forget that american society is based on competition.
i agree with everything else posted , escpecially access to media by every john,joe and schmoe found on the street.
my observation is such that people are so competetive ,that they can't admit
somebody from the other side might have something valid to bring to the table.
i also see [ from just living here 30 years , being from one of those feared socialist countries , Denmark] that the two party system is part of the problem.
this is essentially why the republican party seems to have been hijacked by nut cases,
thereby leaving any reasonable exchange of ideas from both sides null and void.
A bit of a conundrum don't you think? I mean in order to vote in those officials who are intelligent would first require some level of intelligence or at least thoughtful engagement to start with. If John Q Citizen so struggles with measured discourse, then the chances of them electing one that is capable is often chance. After all, we tend to vote for those who seem the most like us.
Something I struggle with is the fact that we are a Republic, not a Democracy and it isn't the will of the people that matters on any given issue at the time. We elect people to make decisions for us, hopefully people who will make the best and most wise decisions for the sake of the state instead of personal motivations. So much for that hope.
On this note, I can point to of all people, Sen. Byrd who stated during the run up to the Iraq war in his famous speech.
The general unease surrounding this war is not just due to "orange alert." There is a pervasive sense of rush and risk and too many questions unanswered. How long will we be in Iraq? What will be the cost? What is the ultimate mission? How great is the danger at home?
A pall has fallen over the Senate Chamber. We avoid our solemn duty to debate the one topic on the minds of all Americans, even while scores of thousands of our sons and daughters faithfully do their duty in Iraq.
He had it right, there was little debate and discussion. To the extent that there was is now in retrospect, little more than sound bytes, propagandized pontifications and timidity of those who had wisdom and chose silence.
True, even in Afghanistan I haven't seen discussions about specific mission, objectives, how we measure success or failure, or exit strategy. So, I guess the lack of discussion and debate isn't party specific.
Doesn't seem like "lessons learned" is part of any debate or dialog.
Funny how the media, despite all of the bandwith, hasn't come to see this as a logical issue for critical analysis.
let's not forget that american society is based on competition.
i agree with everything else posted , escpecially access to media by every john,joe and schmoe found on the street.
my observation is such that people are so competetive ,that they can't admit
somebody from the other side might have something valid to bring to the table.
i also see [ from just living here 30 years , being from one of those feared socialist countries , Denmark] that the two party system is part of the problem.
this is essentially why the republican party seems to have been hijacked by nut cases,
thereby leaving any reasonable exchange of ideas from both sides null and void.
As difficult as it is to suggest that "the other guy" has something valid and meaningful to contribute, I would assert that the greater difficulty lay in that people cannot admit being wrong. (also the basis of most lies) After all, if we are never wrong then we aren't engaging in discourse, we are merely making statements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA
True, even in Afghanistan I haven't seen discussions about specific mission, objectives, how we measure success or failure, or exit strategy. So, I guess the lack of discussion and debate isn't party specific.
Doesn't seem like "lessons learned" is part of any debate or dialog.
Funny how the media, despite all of the bandwith, hasn't come to see this as a logical issue for critical analysis.
The thing I find most baffling about this is that of groups mentioned, it is the media which has the greatest opportunity and ability for critical analysis, yet it is no better in my opinion than that of the public. Worst still, is that I believe there is a great desire for just such a critical analysis and discussion that would make it hugely profitable.
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