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I think that anti-semitism is subtle, as it is here with statements like "Jews are aggressive," rather than direct as you find in the immigration threads, but probably as subtle and as insensitive, biased and negative as we see in threads asking if Senator Obama will appoint and/or surround himself with other Blacks.
We are a prejudice lot, we humans--anything different is suspect, and Jews have been the target of much hatred and a holocaust of massive proportion. Imagine another pogram--another gold star, another Warsaw, and you might not have to wonder why some Jewish folks don't elect to advertise their success.
And although I can be most critical myself, I certainly attempt to present my comments as opinion, and only offer facts when they can be verified. See some of the gibberish in this thread and you can see that even those familiar with Jewish practices are confounded.
I am more than confounded, I am offended.
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Originally Posted by anonymous
I guess what I'm saying is.. I've seen various insensitive jokes and such involving Jews, mostly on television. However, I see equally insensitive things about hispanics, blacks, whites, Muslims, short people, etc., or basically any group that you can think of.
ontheroad, in response to your comments about anti-semitism, I don't doubt that it exists. But is it different than the immigration forum talking about Mexicans, or the threads where some people think all southerners/Yankees should go to hell?
The OP says that Jews are held to a different standard, and my question is, how? Are you saying that, in present-day America, Jews have it worse than other groups?
Pre 1948 happens to be my dating pool, and I can tell you that so far (Jewish or non) I haven't found a man who wasn't circumcised.
It's ridiculous to state that anyone links the US to Israel (in a supportive way I presume you meant) because we rountinely circumcise today. If that were the case you can use the same reasoning to include all Muslims (as being supportive of Israel) as they circumcise too.
Scientific research indicates that male circumcision reduces cancer in women and disease in men. Maybe the popularization of it has more to do with this as well as the fact that many doctors are Jewish and recognize this.
One reason for economic growth in Hebrew friendly nations is because families are scattered all over the globe and so have contacts everywhere. As they may not have been accepted in one nation you'll find a sibling who lives in South Africa, another in Argentina, and yet another sibiling in China.
America supports Israel because they are a Democracy, as we do all other democracies.
I think that anti-semitism is subtle, as it is here with statements like "Jews are aggressive," rather than direct as you find in the immigration threads, but probably as subtle and as insensitive, biased and negative as we see in threads asking if Senator Obama will appoint and/or surround himself with other Blacks.
We are a prejudice lot, we humans--anything different is suspect, and Jews have been the target of much hatred and a holocaust of massive proportion. Imagine another pogram--another gold star, another Warsaw, and you might not have to wonder why some Jewish folks don't elect to advertise their success.
And although I can be most critical myself, I certainly attempt to present my comments as opinion, and only offer facts when they can be verified. See some of the gibberish in this thread and you can see that even those familiar with Jewish practices are confounded.
I am more than confounded, I am offended.
You're right, antisemitism is often very subtle, but I obviously notice it anyway... and subtle or blatant, it doesn't hurt any less.
I wouldn't dare say "we've had it worse" than another ethnic group, since each has suffered in their own ways. But all comparisons aside, we HAVE been through an awful lot! For instance, the reason we're often referred to as "wandering Jews" (even a plant named after that saying, lol) isn't because we like to travel - it's because we were exiled from every darned country we tried to settle in. And we're not just talking about ancient history... most of my ancestors came here in the 1880s-1900, to escape persecution in Russia & Poland. And thank goodness they did, because we all know what happened in those regions during WWII. Anyway, my point is that we have suffered greatly as a people, and I agree that could be one reason we're not so openly proud of our successes. After all, I believe success threatens others more than anything... and that's what leads to persecution, racism, murder, etc.
It is just amazing to me how aggressive most Jewish people I meet in business are. While there are exceptions, most are so driven, demanding of everyone and smarter than most of us. I would not want to work for a Jewish person but would want one to run my company. I think they are God's chosen people.
I appreciate the sentiment behind your post, but do you realize you're still stereotyping us? Whether it's positive or negative, I still find that a bit unsettling!
Btw, I'm not the least bit demanding, and unfortunately not the most driven person either... I won't argue about us being smart, though - LOL. I'm also a very pleasant person to work under, and I think you'd be happy to have me as a boss. Certainly I can't be the only Jewish person like this, so please don't assume we all fit into the stereotypes.
Some also claim that if your not born to a Jewish mom, your not really jewish. My mother was jewish btw...yet I do not look jewish at all, not at all! Go figure! LOL!
Yes, according to traditional Jewish law, you are only Jewish if your mother is (not my personal beliefs, fyi)... both of my parents and all known ancestors of mine are Jewish, so I am definitely 100%! But I have bright red hair, blue eyes & fair skin, so I'm constantly mistaken for an Irish girl.
There really needs to be two separate words for two separate phenomenon: #1: people who adhere to a religion known as Judaism (Judaists), and #2: people who are part of a social/ethnic/political group who call themselves Jews (American/World Jewry). Many people are both, and purposely confuse the two into one Jewish "mishmash." Many people who are part of "World Jewry" are not Judaists. And I have actually met people out there who are Judaists-- who believe in the religious principles of Judaism-- but not formally part of the "Jewish Community." It is impossible to have a conversation about "Jewish success" when we aren't clear what we are talking about.
How would you propose making this distinction? In my experience, people, regardless of how others may label them, self-identify rather than advocate for others to identify them--so, if a person calls themselves, "Jewish" they are "Jewish."
One of the issues about identification that may confound is the disinterest of many in having any label; so if Jon Stewart (named by cil above) doesn't think of himself primarily by a religious or ethnic group, it wouldn't occur to him to say, "hi I'm John Stewart, Jewish," rather he may first identify as a father, a husband, a television personality, and somewhere down the long list of potential labels, add Jewish.
I don't recall many of my acquaintances, friends or colleagues identifying themselves as Christian, Muslim or secular humanist. - nor do I hear this same group identify as Jewish.
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Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
There really needs to be two separate words for two separate phenomenon: #1: people who adhere to a religion known as Judaism (Judaists), and #2: people who are part of a social/ethnic/political group who call themselves Jews (American/World Jewry). Many people are both, and purposely confuse the two into one Jewish "mishmash." Many people who are part of "World Jewry" are not Judaists. And I have actually met people out there who are Judaists-- who believe in the religious principles of Judaism-- but not formally part of the "Jewish Community." It is impossible to have a conversation about "Jewish success" when we aren't clear what we are talking about.
LOL! I have alot of ancestors who have red hair and very fair skin too! Maybe people are just not really educated here on things, and if they were they would not be so quick to judge here maybe...if you do wear makeup.....do you wear makeup just for redheads? My best friend does, its made for light complexions and red hair! And she also avoids the sun like the plague, too bad she lives in callie!
How would you propose making this distinction? In my experience, people, regardless of how others may label them, self-identify rather than advocate for others to identify them--so, if a person calls themselves, "Jewish" they are "Jewish."
I agree that making a distinction would be difficult, if not impossible. The definition of who is a Jew is an extremely political issue, a debate that I don't care to get into. I personally think it is more helpful to talk about the "Jewish phenomenon," a global history of diverse peoples and individuals who have been associated with the label "Jewish" or "Israelite" in one form or another-- even if they have no relationship to each other. The phenomenon includes the contemporary mainstream religious denominations-- Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc., it includes secular Jews like Woody Allen, and it also includes different groups of Christians throughout the world that identify themselves as lost tribes of Israel or having Judaic roots. Because of the long, and often horrible history associated with the word "Jew," it is pretty much impossible for people affected by the "Jewish phenomenon" to be truly normal. But if "Jews," whether they are self-identified or pointed out by society, want to be normal, they NEED to make the distinction between ethnicity and religion. Otherwise, you get people like this:
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Originally Posted by spike1611
I agree wholeheartedly that the majority of the world's successes and successful people are the Jewish people and their works. Why? Well, as some may know by now, I'm unashamedly Christian, so I'll offer a brief perspective...
God hasn't forgotten His promise to bless the Jews. Simple. They were, are, and always will be His cream of the crop.
I'm sure this poster has a heart made out of gold-- and I truly admire that. But spike1611, we can never have normal human relations with each other, a truly rational conversation as long as you view us as characters straight out of the bible, even if you think that is God's "cream of the crop." Jews are flesh-and-blood people just like everybody else-- they have the same human feelings, struggles, and faults as everybody else. There are some really bad Jews out there-- including Jewish drug dealers, murderers, and criminals-- just like every other group of people. It's not just evangelical Christians that have this fuzzy, superhuman attitude towards the Jews-- it's many Jews themselves. It's an ideology with a long history. But it needs to go, if we are to ever break out of the dark ages.
I do think, myself here that alot of people don't like us cause of how Israel and America have ponied up and more less support each other, maybe its the far right agenda here too, but I do hear alot of negativity bout Israel and how we do their bidding ALOT...and I have to research this more myself here to find out what is valid and what is not here..but to link all of us to Israel is wrong, many of us, most of us consider ourselves to be Americans and always American first...at least that is my take on it anyhow...but this is a good discussion..as I am doing alot of digging into my own history lately due to many current events and things going on in my life...I am not offended personally here, I find it "interesting" as I had already pointed out here.
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I'm also a very pleasant person to work under, and I think you'd be happy to have me as a boss. Certainly I can't be the only Jewish person like this, so please don't assume we all fit into the stereotypes.
- nor do I hear this same group identify as Jewish. 