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Old 04-05-2012, 06:34 AM
 
994 posts, read 723,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
They have many freedoms that Americans don't; namely freedom to live in dignity, no matter whether you stack shelves for a living or are a lawyer (note: I am not advocating a lawyer earns the same as a supermarket worker). You are far more "free" to spend more time with your family and friends, which to me is far more important than being "free" to carry a loaded weapon around or go around inciting hatred, like the Westboro Baptist Church do. Since higher education is so cheap or even free, you are free to change paths later in life without having to worry about incurring hefty student loans or losing health insurance coverage.

It all depends on what freedoms are important to you.
Don't confuse government subsidies with freedom. What you're describing isn't freedom. It's simply lack of financial responsibility.

The "freedom" to get an education without paying for it is not comparable to the freedom of speech. The "right" to a high wage for a menial job is not equivalent to the right to bear arms. Apples and oranges.

While you may disagree, the government providing the people with goods and services in exchange for limiting the individual's ability to say and do what he wills is not a fair trade in my eyes.

You can take out a student loan and get an education. You can't buy free speech.
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:39 AM
 
Location: Purgatory
2,615 posts, read 5,388,962 times
Reputation: 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest View Post
You mean you dont mind making me pay for your stuff and claiming thats the price that must be paid in order to live on your plantation?
I pay for my own stuff, as do Danes and Swedes. If you are referring to tax money going towards the social safety net and to pay for education and healthcare, 1) everyone pays 2) everyone benefits. It's the price you pay for living in a civilised, fair society and a generally happier one at that. It's really not rocket science. If you don't like tax, I suggest moving to Somalia.
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Purgatory
2,615 posts, read 5,388,962 times
Reputation: 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kkaos2 View Post
Don't confuse government subsidies with freedom. What you're describing isn't freedom. It's simply lack of financial responsibility.

The "freedom" to get an education without paying for it is not comparable to the freedom of speech. The "right" to a high wage for a menial job is not equivalent to the right to bear arms. Apples and oranges.

While you may disagree, the government providing the people with goods and services in exchange for limiting the individual's ability to say and do what he wills is not a fair trade in my eyes.

You can take out a student loan and get an education. You can't buy free speech.
It isn't freedom in your eyes, but it is freedom nonetheless. Being able to go to school and not worry about being burdened with student loans is a huge freedom, as is the thought of getting sick and not having to worry about money.

The problem with many Americans (not all) is that you equate freedom with only a limited number of things, e.g. guns, freedom of speech without knowing where to draw the line when free speech becomes harassment or incitement of hatred.

There are people burdened with debt in this country who are effectively slaves, unable to go back to school or retrain, unable to see a doctor because they can't pay for it and have no health insurance. Some freedom that is, or people who are forced to work all hours god sends, barely having enough leisure time, while their children are raised by child minders, or other family members if they're lucky enough to have at least a family safety net.

And it's this whole crap about "government this, government provides that" nonsense that I cannot stomach. The government is just an elected branch of the people. You are just as "entitled" to benefit from any safety net as the next person. No one is robbing you of your precious money; not all of us care wealth and would rather live in a more fair and just society.

Having lived in both the US and Europe, I don't think many of you realise how oppressive American society can feel, which is nothing to do with the government, but more of an overall feeling of having to conform and live your life according to a certain "plan" with little or no deviation. It does vary though; the west coast definitely feels more laid back and open to differences, but there's a heavy corporate culture, too much tolerance of bullying and those who want government out of their lives when it comes to issues such as welfare, have no problem wanting the government to ban same sex marriage and abortions. There's a lot of anger and hostility in this country, not happiness or even contentment. You only need to read this forum alone to see a plethora of evidence of that. Why? Because people are stressed out, worried, overworked and unhappy.

So again, it boils down to what freedoms are most important to you. Personally, the right to incite hatred and guns are not that important to me, but each to their own.

Last edited by dragonborn; 04-05-2012 at 06:59 AM..
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
14,466 posts, read 11,246,933 times
Reputation: 8983
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
What many here fail to understand is that excess money isn't everything to everyone; some people are perfectly content to just be middle class, but living in a more balanced, level playing field type society where you haven't got to spend your life working yourself silly.
In other words, you aspire to mediocrity.
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,665,850 times
Reputation: 24861
I am, and always have been, because I failed to choose rich or even sane parents, a wage slave. Most of us are forced to do something we do not really like in order to survive in this system. I work for others because I do not want to run my own business. I have, however always “worked for myself” in another’s workplace. I do as much as I have to so I remain employed.

Soon, after roughly fifty years of this crap, I will retire and have enough income to supply the basics without having to spend any time earning it. I will then work for myself at what I want to do and only have to worry about it paying for itself. If I get good at it I may actually make a profit for myself from my own work. That would be new and different.

As far as Denmark, aka Land of the Danes, is concerned these are intensely capitalistic countries and societies that have learned that taking care of the mechanics, farmers and fishermen is just as important as taking care of the Vikings. There are still Vikings in the Scandinavian world but they are at the money market computers and not on long ships. They have managed to balance their need for wealth with their need for peace. The world should be thankful.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Purgatory
2,615 posts, read 5,388,962 times
Reputation: 3099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua View Post
In other words, you aspire to mediocrity.
Since you are only capable of looking at such issues in black or white terms, that's the only illogical conclusion that you're likely to come up with.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Neither here nor there
14,810 posts, read 16,180,420 times
Reputation: 33001
"Happy"? Seems to me it would be more like "complacency" knowing that there are so many "free" services available to them. They know that "the state" is going to take care of them so that engenders a level of feeling secure. Just my take........
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
14,466 posts, read 11,246,933 times
Reputation: 8983
Quote:
Originally Posted by wade52 View Post
If you're burdened by excessive taxes, you have options.

Move to an isolated rural area with no paved roads, no water/sewer systems, no fire or police protection, no trash disposal and small distant schools.

You'll like the taxes there.
I live in Boston. Bad roads, bad schools, cops who are too busy in the bad areas to respond to the good areas, and firemen who are dying in fires because they are on cocaine or stoned. All with a budget of over 2 billion dollars per year.
BTW the teachers average over 80,000 dollars for their part time jobs.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:23 AM
 
45,137 posts, read 26,325,093 times
Reputation: 24874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua View Post
I live in Boston. Bad roads, bad schools, cops who are too busy in the bad areas to respond to the good areas, and firemen who are dying in fires because they are on cocaine or stoned. All with a budget of over 2 billion dollars per year.
BTW the teachers average over 80,000 dollars for their part time jobs.
The liberal solution will be for you to move to Somalia.
See how progressive they are? lol
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
14,466 posts, read 11,246,933 times
Reputation: 8983
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
Since you are only capable of looking at such issues in black or white terms, that's the only illogical conclusion that you're likely to come up with.
Oh yeah, because all your posts are certainly exhibiting a moderate point of view.
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