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Old 09-20-2009, 11:40 AM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,834,307 times
Reputation: 17863

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
My house is heated by solar;
How much did it cost for installation? How big is your house and does it supply all your heat? What region of the country do you live?
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Old 09-20-2009, 11:51 AM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,834,307 times
Reputation: 17863
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
I don't know where you're getting your information from, but Europe tends to use efficient heating sources.
Over almost the last decade Spain who is at the forefront of implementation of renewable energy in Europe has only been able to do so with out backlash from the public by allowing the energy companies to accrue a massive deficit.

Let me google that for you

In the grand scheme of things they have not made a significant dent in the amount of fossil fules they use yet the one article I read cited a figure that a 25% increase in the cost of electric would be required to just meet what it costs due to the investment in renewables. It would need to be increased by as much as 1/3 to pay back the debt.

If that is not enough for you here is article about the current state of things in one of the larger programs here in the US.

Austin's clean energy program costing more, selling less (http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/2009/07/12/0712greenchoice.html - broken link)

Quote:
Austin's clean energy program costing more, selling less
Electric utility chief says separate charge for renewable power may need to be rolled into all users' bills.

By Marty Toohey
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Sunday, July 12, 2009

For the past decade, Austin's ambition to become the world's clean-energy capital has been best exemplified by one effort: GreenChoice, a program that sells electricity generated entirely from renewable sources such as wind.

Now the nationally renowned program is struggling to find buyers — the latest allotment is 99 percent unsold after seven months on the market — and Austin Energy is looking for ways to bring down the rising costs.

But those are short-term talks.

Austin Energy officials say that times have changed and that the nation's most successful (by volume of sales) green-energy program, which offers the renewable energy only to those who select it, might no longer be the best way to carry out the city's goals. It now costs almost three times more than the standard electricity rate.
We're not talking about fractions here but a 300% increase if you want to participate in that program.
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Old 09-20-2009, 12:21 PM
 
27,206 posts, read 46,575,377 times
Reputation: 15661
OMG...Money hungry Al Gore comes out this week with his new movie in 60 countries so we have to hide!...I read it in a European newspaper and all the people they mention who come for the premiere, are the biggest energy wasters of this earth...

Al is laughing his a$$ of!
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Old 09-20-2009, 01:00 PM
 
27,625 posts, read 21,040,560 times
Reputation: 11092
Soaking Up the Sun: Solar Power in Germany and Japan

Japan and Germany, two somewhat unlikely nations, are now world leaders in solar energy installations and are home to booming domestic solar industries. The secret of their success: sustained public investments in both the development and deployment of solar energy technology. Each nation took a distinct path, and lessons can be learned form both.

The Breakthrough Institute: Soaking Up the Sun: Solar Power in Germany and Japan
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Old 09-20-2009, 01:14 PM
 
8,058 posts, read 3,915,531 times
Reputation: 5342
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
It's not called "global warming" anymore. It's called "climate change" now, so whatever happens as a result of the natural ebb and flow of the global climate, it can be blamed on humans and CO2. If it rains too much...climate change. If there are fewer hurricanes than average, it must be also climate change. It's a very convenient political strategy, which is all this stuff has ever been anyway.
LOL - I can top that! Last summer, after our earthquake in southern Illinois, we received letters-to-the-editor blaming it on global warming - oops, climate change!
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Old 09-20-2009, 01:30 PM
 
1,360 posts, read 1,937,426 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
cheilgirl
Yeah, don't let facts get in your way.
You can't get all emotional when they're presented to you; of course, you do deny anything that doesn't fit in your worldview.
Yeah...you should follow your own advice...

coaps.fsu.edu | Ryan Maue's Seasonal Tropical Cyclone Activity Update
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Old 09-20-2009, 01:49 PM
 
27,625 posts, read 21,040,560 times
Reputation: 11092
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyandclaire89 View Post
I agree...we should have a responsible and common sense environmental policy...but not environmental fanaticism...as though humans shouldn't exist on this planet....
I think the fanaticism exists within the denying that the problems are real and that we are responsible. Humans should not exist on the planet in the way that they have. Money and profits do not trump a healthy and sustained environment. When people are screaming to "drill baby drill" that is the fanaticism in buying into the very things that have destroyed habitats that are essential to the ecosystem and that have made the greed of the big oil corporatists propel us into wars.
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:41 PM
 
1,360 posts, read 1,937,426 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
I think the fanaticism exists within the denying that the problems are real and that we are responsible. Humans should not exist on the planet in the way that they have. Money and profits do not trump a healthy and sustained environment. When people are screaming to "drill baby drill" that is the fanaticism in buying into the very things that have destroyed habitats that are essential to the ecosystem and that have made the greed of the big oil corporatists propel us into wars.
Thats nothing more than environmental propaganda....

I think the following blog states it best what the results would have been if we didn't drill for oil..

Well, all whales would be extinct. Petroleum was first utilized in the 1800's as fuel for lamps. Prior to the discovery that petroleum could be refined into lamp oil, whales were the primary source. The entire whaling industry of the 1800's collapsed due to competition from petroleum.

It is hard to say what other effects oil had on civilization. Cars could have (and were) run from vegetable oil and alcohol. It is likely that the world would have never experienced the population growth that we have seen in the last one and one-half centuries if oil were not available. Cheap energy is the primary reason modern agriculture has become more and more efficient, and using 19th century farming methods would likely result in less than half the amount of food available today.

Most of the industrial revolution may have never taken place, and World War 1, if it even took place, likely would have been won by the Germans. It was primarily oil produced in Texas and California that fueled the Allied Armies of World War 1 and 2. (The US was once the world's largest oil exporter) The primary reason the Germans and Japanese lost was lack of petroleum fuel for their military. The main reason the Japanese used kamikaze pilots was lack of fuel for planes to return home. It is likely that the US would not be a world power, as most of the wealth of the US was built on oil when the United States was the major supplier of oil to the world.

If railroads were still powered by steam engines and coal and wood, it is likely that the world would be a much dirtier place (have you ever seen the smoke from a steam engine?), and that deforestation of the American West. The railroads were originally given vast tracts of forest land in order to provide fuel for the trains. These lands today are in many cases still in forest, and are utilized by the timber industry. In some parts of the west, almost every other township (a township is 36 square miles) was once railroad land.

Suburbs would likely have never been built. Modern suburbia is built on the assumption of easy traveling, using cheap energy. You would probably live in a crowded apartment building in a city because the ability to travel quickly might not be available.

Without oil, or with very expensive oil, most of the products we use today will be impacted. We simply can't grow enough corn and soybeans to replace the oil we presently use. If we start making plastics out of soybeans, or corn, to replace oil, we will have even less left over for fuel and food. If we don't have plastics, we can't have computers as we know them. The internet would grind to a halt without oil. Roads and rooftops would have to be made of concrete (using coal as an energy source) and ceramic tiles. Coal mining would likely be much more extensive than it is today. Your electricity supply might get shut off much more often, as the natural gas fired power plants that supply peak electric supply would not exist. Nuclear energy might be much more common, but much more expensive because all the materials used to build a nuclear power plant must be mined, with mines powered by oil or coal.

Airplane travel might not exist. One of the problems that an airplane must deal with is the ability to carry enough energy with a low enough weight to be able to fly. Coal doesn't work too well for airplanes. Neither does biodiesel or alchohol.

If oil was never pumped, it would still be leaking naturally onto the surface of the earth as it has for millenia. Thousands of barrels of oil leak naturally out of the earth, and evaporate or are biologically and chemically broken down and returned to the atmosphere. In California for example, billions of cubic feet of natural gas and thousands of barrels of oil seep naturally into the environment, and many of the seeps are believed to be as old as 30 million years. Oil is a natural part of the environment, and is a part of the Earth's carbon cycle that moves in and out of the atmosphere and biosphere as a natural part of the planet's geochemical cycle. Almost all of that oil was once in the planet's atmosphere as carbon dioxide, and was simply stored by plants and animals and geologic processes. Oil is truly stored solar energy, combined with a certain amount of geothermal energy, that has been stored naturally by the planet.


with estimates of 3 trillion barrels of oil in the earth, and at least 1 trillion of those used already, there are always new technologies that can extract more and more hydrocarbons from the earth. Even a depleted oil field today still often has as much as half of the original oil left behind. As recovery methods improve, that oil may someday be available. As we learn to utilize things like coal bed methane, oil sands, gas shale, oil shale, and other sources we may begin to add to that 3 trillion barrels. As oil prices rise, many otherwise uneconomical technologies become available. Estimates of the amount of methane hydrates in the ocean floor are huge, but it is still unknown if we will ever utilize them. The real problem with peak oil is not the lack of oil supply, but the price and the rate at which that oil can be supplied to the world. At present, the oil industry is actually struggling to produce as much oil as the world wants to buy, thus the high price of oil today, that is likely to get higher. The world really does not have to fear burning the last drop of oil- the world has to fear paying much higher prices for energy, and the impact that will have on our lifestyles. It is no coincidence the the largest economy in the world (the US) also has the largest energy consumption. At present there is a direct correlation between Gross Domestic Product and the amount of oil used in the United States. Improving that efficiency will be a big challenge. The biggest impact of higher energy prices may very well be shrinking population, as most our improvements in productivity that have led to higher populations are the result of cheap energy.

Finally take cheap energy away...you can kiss your quality of life away forever...
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Old 09-10-2014, 12:55 PM
 
35 posts, read 90,446 times
Reputation: 44
Don't you read the news?

No Named Storms First Time Since 1992 at Hurricane Peak - Bloomberg

Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
Japan had more frequent and severe storms last year than it had in decades.
The US has had more intense storms over the past decade.
Don't you read the news?
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Old 09-10-2014, 01:01 PM
 
4,873 posts, read 3,577,532 times
Reputation: 3881
Global Warming decreases hurricane frequency and increases intensity. So less hurricanes proves global warming. Thanks for your help.
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