Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-08-2009, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Saturn
1,519 posts, read 1,625,405 times
Reputation: 246

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Can we please go back to the level of Bush's deficits, at the very least - preferably less? Obama's deficit spending is/will be totally out of control.

"In the first independent analysis, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office concluded that President Obama's budget would rack up massive deficits even after the economy recovers, forcing the nation to borrow nearly $9.3 trillion over the next decade."
With chart:
Bush vs Obama Deficit - washingtonpost.com

Bernanke's warning:

"U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke told lawmakers Thursday that the dollar's status as a global reserve currency isn't at risk in the near term, but warned that could change if fiscal deficits aren't brought under control."
Bernanke: Dollar Will Be At Risk If U.S. Doesn't Control Budget Gap

Even Warren Buffett, an Obama supporter, warns about huge federal deficits and an increase in the Debt-to-GDP ratio:
The Greenback Effect - The New York Times
Warren Buffett warns budget deficit may harm dollar - Telegraph
Debt/GDP ratio of itself is extremely important.
However.

Can I put this in simplistic terms?

If I borrow money to improve the structure of my home, that is good borrowing/spending.
I am investing in my home - I am adding value to my home.

If I borrow money to spend it on food/drinl/clothes, this is bad borrowing/spending.


faced with the current situation, what could Obama do?
He could decide "no, I will not spend borrow any money - in order to stop spending".
Problem is - how does he fund existing services and how does he manage to repay the legacy deficits created/inflated by Bush?
Those are the two issues.

He has two choices : stop borrowing and let the chips fall where they may.
Let the car companies implode, let the banks implode, let everything implode.
Or he can borrow/fund with conditions.

The not borrowing/spending alternative is not viable.
America Inc. would grind to a halt.

Last edited by Indurain; 10-08-2009 at 09:51 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-08-2009, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Saturn
1,519 posts, read 1,625,405 times
Reputation: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
You forgot to add... National debt levels were far too high, and even worse, are now growing exponentially higher in Obama's term.
National debt was far too high - and for sure the debt will increase.
remember though the national debt exploded under Bush.

That legacy of debt, now haunts any attempts of economic recovery.
Just when the USA needed real credit, it finds that the legacy borrowings (which have to be funded) also need to be seen to.

But what can Obama do?
What is the alternative?

The govt right now is the only agency in your country which can solve the economic problem.
If the banks were allowed to fail : what little credit would vanish and then corporate America would grind to a shuddering halt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2009, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Saturn
1,519 posts, read 1,625,405 times
Reputation: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC View Post


Psst job losses are continuing...

The simple fact of the matter is that your country is in a terrible bind right now.
Your economy is imploding.
Your currency is imploding.



By spending more money... money it doesn't have and must borrow....and printing more of course....


LOL....I will remember this.


Obama is doing nothing to stop those wars....and is simply rewarding HIS rich friends.
Job losses will continue - nothing surer.
And nothing that Obama or anyone else for that matter, can do a thing about it.

When the economic model has been created on the basis of credit, and credit is suddenly choked off - and it will be choked off for a further prolonged period - economic hard times are the order of the day.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2009, 09:55 AM
 
Location: North Cackelacky....in the hills.
19,567 posts, read 21,792,921 times
Reputation: 2519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indurain View Post
Job losses will continue - nothing surer.
And nothing that Obama or anyone else for that matter, can do a thing about it.
Very true...but things can be made worse...such as lumping the people with insurmountable debt.

Quote:
When the economic model has been created on the basis of credit, and credit is suddenly choked off - and it will be choked off for a further prolonged period - economic hard times are the order of the day.
And nothing can be done about this....Obama is simply trying to fix a system that can no longer be made to work...the system is based upon a lie.

There are no more bubbles to inflate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,556 posts, read 44,263,959 times
Reputation: 13503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indurain View Post
Debt/GDP ratio of itself is extremely important.
However.

Can I put this in simplistic terms?

If I borrow money to improve the structure of my home, that is good borrowing/spending.
I am investing in my home - I am adding value to my home.

If I borrow money to spend it on food/drinl/clothes, this is bad borrowing/spending.


faced with the current situation, what could Obama do?
He could decide "no, I will not spend borrow any money - in order to stop spending".
Problem is - how does he fund existing services and how does he manage to repay the legacy deficits created/inflated by Bush?
First of all, cut your patronizing BS.
What could Obama do? Just a guess... he could STOP ADDING TO IT by not expanding government and piling on more entitlement programs!

Quote:
He has two choices : stop borrowing and let the chips fall where they may.
Let the car companies implode, let the banks implode, let everything implode.
Or he can borrow/fund with conditions.
Or, he could abandon his pet projects of expanding the government and adding new entitlement programs.

Quote:
The not borrowing/spending alternative is not viable.
America Inc. would grind to a halt.
Obama's out of control record-setting deficit spending will grind this country to a halt - both Bernanke and Buffett have warned such.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2009, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Saturn
1,519 posts, read 1,625,405 times
Reputation: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC View Post
Very true...but things can be made worse...such as lumping the people with insurmountable debt.
.
Rubbish.

There is a distinction between good debt (roads/infrastructure) and bad debt (wars/tax breaks fro rich buddies).

Hopefully Obama will select the good debt option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC View Post


And nothing can be done about this....Obama is simply trying to fix a system that can no longer be made to work...the system is based upon a lie.
Of course there are solutions.
Admittedly solutions won't be found that will placate all you Obamahaters/Bushlovers.

But there are longterm, viable solutions.

You need to ween yerselves off oil, start building a green economy, start manufacturing product in your own country, stop invading countries, desist from creeping imperialism throughout the world.
That would be a good start.



Quote:
Originally Posted by oz in SC View Post

There are no more bubbles to inflate.
Of course there are.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2009, 10:06 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,556 posts, read 44,263,959 times
Reputation: 13503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indurain View Post
National debt was far too high - and for sure the debt will increase.
remember though the national debt exploded under Bush.

That legacy of debt, now haunts any attempts of economic recovery.
Just when the USA needed real credit, it finds that the legacy borrowings (which have to be funded) also need to be seen to.

But what can Obama do?
What is the alternative?
How about this... Obama could choose to NOT rack up additional debt equaling the amount of the total debt accrued by ALL of the 43 U.S. Presidents who came before him?

Quote:
The govt right now is the only agency in your country which can solve the economic problem.
If the banks were allowed to fail : what little credit would vanish and then corporate America would grind to a shuddering halt.
What do the banks have to do with Obama's pet big government and entitlement programs expenditures?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2009, 10:08 AM
 
Location: North Cackelacky....in the hills.
19,567 posts, read 21,792,921 times
Reputation: 2519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indurain View Post
Rubbish.

There is a distinction between good debt (roads/infrastructure) and bad debt (wars/tax breaks fro rich buddies).

Hopefully Obama will select the good debt option.
He hasn't yet.




Quote:
Of course there are solutions.
Admittedly solutions won't be found that will placate all you Obamahaters/Bushlovers.
Name a solution that doesn't require the people to be saddled with insurmountable debt...

Quote:
But there are longterm, viable solutions.
Yes,cut spending.

Quote:
You need to ween yerselves off oil, start building a green economy, start manufacturing product in your own country, stop invading countries, desist from creeping imperialism throughout the world.
That would be a good start.
LOL...not much chance of any of that with Obama in office.




Care to name a new bubble that can be inflated to get us along until it bursts???

Of course,perhaps a better solution is to stop counting upon some new bubble to inflate the economy???
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2009, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Saturn
1,519 posts, read 1,625,405 times
Reputation: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
First of all, cut your patronizing BS.
What could Obama do? Just a guess... he could STOP ADDING TO IT by expanding government and piling on more entitlement programs!
And there was me thinking that you knew what you were talking about!

You've cornered the market in BS, amigo.

Evidently you've never heard of the concept of good debt and bad debt?

i even tried to dumb it down for you, so that you'd understand

I suspect that you do understand and you know that I am right - but you just can't being yourself to agree with me.
fair enough.
No need to swear though.





Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post


Or, he could abandon his pet projects of expanding the government and adding new entitlement programs.


Obama's out of control record-setting deficit spending will grind this country to a halt - both Bernanke and Buffett have warned such.
I think your kind would be the first to suffer if the banks imploded : they'd skin you and your kind alive.

I'm beginning to think that Obama might be wrong - maybe he should just let you all scrap for whatever ravages are left.






Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
First of all, cut your patronizing BS.
What could Obama do? Just a guess... he could STOP ADDING TO IT by expanding government and piling on more entitlement programs!


Or, he could abandon his pet projects of expanding the government and adding new entitlement programs.


Obama's out of control record-setting deficit spending will grind this country to a halt - both Bernanke and Buffett have warned such.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-08-2009, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Saturn
1,519 posts, read 1,625,405 times
Reputation: 246
Context Oz and Consent :

This is what Obama has inherited.
see below.



Current: $11,927,435,900,948.90
2004: $7,379,052,696,330.32
1999: $5,656,270,901,615.43
1994: $4,692,749,910,013.32
1989: $2,857,430,960,187.32
1984: $1,572,266,000,000.00
1979: $826,519,000,000.00
1974: $475,059,815,731.55
1969: $353,720,253,841.41
1964: $311,712,899,257.30
1959: $284,705,907,078.22


"The Federal government's gross debt - the accumulation of its annual deficits - was about $7 trillion last September [2003], which works out to about $24,000 for every man, woman and child in the country. But that number excludes items like the gap between the government's Social Security and Medicare commitments and the money put aside to pay for them. If these items are factored in, the burden for every American rises to well over $100,000."
- David M. Walker,
Comptroller General of the United States



Update September 2008 - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac hold $5.2 trillion in direct and contingent mortgage liabilities, plus $1.5 trillion in debts and $2 trillion in derivatives for a total potential liability of $8.7 trillion. These two agencies now have an unlimited line of credit from the U.S. treasury.
"It is the CBO view that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should be directly incorporated into the federal budget." - Peter Orszag, director of the Congressional Budget Office, September 9, 2008. (Three years ago in 2005, Freddie Mac lobbying killed legislation that would have regulated Freddie and Fannie and perhaps prevented the problems that arose in 2008.)

The U.S. dollar has fallen in value more than 40% during the past few years relative to the Eurodollar. The decline continues and international investors who hold $4.6 trillion in U.S. treasury bills, corporate bonds and stocks are starting to panic. The massive U.S. Federal deficit and the equally massive U.S. trade deficit both conspire toward even lower value for the U.S. dollar.

"And never forget: When foreign investors are selling, they're not just selling the currency. They're selling all the investments they bought with the currency — stocks, bonds, private businesses, real estate, and more." - Dr. Martin Weiss, November 8, 2004.

Average Americans "don't connect the dots between the dollar's decline overseas and a declining purchasing power of the dollar at home ... between the threat to the dollar and the threat to the entire economy ... between the dire threat to the economy and an equally dire threat to the fabric of society." - Dr. Martin Weiss, February 9, 2004

According to the Federal Reserve Bank's Flow of Funds Report for the first quarter of 2008, total American debt is $50 trillion which is 350% of GDP. This is far above the 1933 level shown in the Total U.S. Debt chart near the top of this page. As shown in the chart, in 1929 total US debt was about 150% of GDP. It rose to its peak of 264% in 1933 largely due to contraction of GDP. The enormous pile of debt presently owed by Americans has the potential to cause an economic implosion greater than the 1930's when GDP contracted by nearly 30% and unemployment rose to 25% of the workforce

The U.S. Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 2008 is estimated to be $14 trillion. GDP growth has stalled and may even be declining. The total U.S. $50 trillion debt is growing at an annual rate of about 9%. Interest rates are rising, and will rise much more quickly if global investors begin to doubt the ability of the United States to pay.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:04 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top