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Old 10-08-2009, 04:23 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 2,066,065 times
Reputation: 1298

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This is a very scary article about how we've allowed the Police to become a Fascist force against the people. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091008/ap_on_re_us/us_stop_and_frisk - broken link)


Not only that, but it's done in such a racist manner that it's disgusting:
Last year, New York police stopped 531,159 people, more than five times the number in 2002. Fifty-one percent of those stopped were black, 32 percent Hispanic and 11 percent white.


11% of those who are stopped are white in a city that's 35% non-Hispanic White...shows that they are racially motivated.

Some people who are stopped file lawsuits against the city and speak out publicly. Most just accept it.

In Harlem, George Lucas changed his route home from work to avoid a stretch of Seventh Avenue, because he kept being stopped by the police.
"The inconvenience of walking out of my way still saves me the worry and frustration about being stopped," said Lucas, 28, director of a nonprofit.

Regardless, the constitution states:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
That is clearly being violated by the police in their random checks and we need to stand up before we're surrounded by cameras that monitor every move and don't even allow us freedom in our own homes (like in Demolition Man).
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,824 posts, read 21,298,336 times
Reputation: 6523
The Op may want to read up on Terry v. Ohio, 392 US 1 (1968). What the article describes is a "Terry Stop" which is perfectly constitutional and been in common practice for more than 40 years. It isn't like this is something new.

I also would not take the article at face value. The AP is not exactly noted for telling the truth, particularly when they make up their own figures.

Quote:
...according to figures gathered by The Associated Press.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:06 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 2,066,065 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
The Op may want to read up on Terry v. Ohio, 392 US 1 (1968). What the article describes is a "Terry Stop" which is perfectly constitutional and been in common practice for more than 40 years. It isn't like this is something new.

I also would not take the article at face value. The AP is not exactly noted for telling the truth, particularly when they make up their own figures.
The AP is the most legitimate news source in this country. There's a reason why every major newspaper and TV news station (including Fox) picks up stories from the AP.

And just because it's been done since the late 60s doesn't mean it's constitutional.

After all, alcohol prohibition required a constitutional amendment, so why didn't drug prohibition? Just because we have laws or something is allowed does not mean it's truly constitutional.

It is my right as an American Citizen to walk down the street without fear of being searched by the cops for no reason. How ANYONE can argue against this is beyond me.

DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN AN ORWELLIAN SOCIETY?
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:08 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
3,635 posts, read 3,218,556 times
Reputation: 3479
Default I agree, and disagree.

See, where many would simply look at your statistics on the surface, I tend to go a little deeper in the way I think about these things. Like for instance, could some of the problem possibly come from the fact that more black and hispanic people put themselves in a position to be stopped than white people? Also, these people of other races that were stopped, were they for the most part later convicted of some crime? See I'm sorry, but I don't think everything has to be done with race in mind at all times. If you happen to pull over 10 black people in a day and only 3 white, that doesn't necessarily mean you are just a racist. Perhaps it just turned out that more black people were in violation of various laws that day.

Equality is a wonderful thing, but it shouldn't become the standard by which everything is conducted, especially law enforcement. By that logic, there would basically be a quota for how many people of any particular race you were allowed to stop in a day. So what if you saw five more black people committing crimes on any given day, you have already reached your quota, and must therefore let them go or risk being called a racist. That isn't right, and it isn't fair to others who just maybe, aren't committing as much crime as other races. I mean, you call it racially disgusting because fewer whites were stopped than black or hispanic. But what about the fewer hispanics? I guess those guys are getting special treatment as well right. Point is, crime is crime and just because there are more people of a particular race being busted, that doesn't have to spell racism. Sure, there are probably racist people on the force. There are racist people everywhere. But you need to look at one simple thing. Were these people, whatever color, committing a crime or convicted of a crime after they were stopped or questioned? Because in the end, that is all that matters. Catching the bad guys. And if there happen to be more caught of a particular race than another, perhaps it's because they are committing more crime. It doesn't have to be just because of racism.

And one more thing, though I have to be quick. I do agree with you that the system is broken and police are not acting with the best interest of the people at heart. They have forgotten their duty to protect and serve the people, opting instead to protect and serve the system. And I have also noticed a complete lack of discipline among law enforcement agencies. There was a time when officers, when confronted with danger, would try to wound the criminal and take them into custody without causing mortal wounds. Today, everytime I hear about a shooting, the criminal is dead. Most often, shot in the head. Now for anyone who has shot a gun, you might know the head is not the easiest place to hit. Arms and legs are usually much more bulky targets and can be utilized to ground a combatant without killing them. But today's police seem to operate on a policy of deadly force, opting to take a life instead of remembering their duties don't just cover the regular citizen, they cover the criminal as well. While they are out there to protect us from criminals, they are also supposed to try and protect the criminals from themselves. That is the duty of a police officer. Protect and serve, even the ones who are currently your opponents. Because they are still people and still citizens of this country. This is what has been lost by our men/women in blue, and it must be addressed.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:09 PM
 
193 posts, read 176,683 times
Reputation: 56
Just because it has been common practice for 40 years doesn't mean its Constitutional. The 13th amendment is unconstitutional but the USSC ignores that fact in favor of the PC dictates of the liberal America. Common practice does not mean right, fair or Constitutional.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:19 PM
 
193 posts, read 176,683 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reads2MUCH View Post
Point is, crime is crime and just because there are more people of a particular race being busted, that doesn't have to spell racism. Sure, there are probably racist people on the force. There are racist people everywhere. But you need to look at one simple thing. Were these people, whatever color, committing a crime or convicted of a crime after they were stopped or questioned? Because in the end, that is all that matters. Catching the bad guys. And if there happen to be more caught of a particular race than another, perhaps it's because they are committing more crime. It doesn't have to be just because of racism.
I live in a predominantly black town and. The breakdown is just about the opposite of the national breakdown, not as many whites as blacks and Latinos making up a portion too. The black on black violence is staggering, even to good thoughtful blacks who live here. The CULTURE is the problem. Remember, there were more whites killed by blacks last year, percentage-wise than the KKK ever killed of blacks. You can't criticize blacks or black culture without being called a racist. As long as they hide behind character assassination to prevent examination of the root causes the violence will only escalate. "To behave as good citizens is to act white and acting white is bad" seems to be the basis for black culture. This mandates violence. Now, with a black president, they are still hiding behind that rhetoric. If they had nothing to hide they wouldn't use such tactics.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:20 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,518 posts, read 2,066,065 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reads2MUCH View Post
See, where many would simply look at your statistics on the surface, I tend to go a little deeper in the way I think about these things. Like for instance, could some of the problem possibly come from the fact that more black and hispanic people put themselves in a position to be stopped than white people? Also, these people of other races that were stopped, were they for the most part later convicted of some crime? See I'm sorry, but I don't think everything has to be done with race in mind at all times. If you happen to pull over 10 black people in a day and only 3 white, that doesn't necessarily mean you are just a racist. Perhaps it just turned out that more black people were in violation of various laws that day.

Equality is a wonderful thing, but it shouldn't become the standard by which everything is conducted, especially law enforcement. By that logic, there would basically be a quota for how many people of any particular race you were allowed to stop in a day. So what if you saw five more black people committing crimes on any given day, you have already reached your quota, and must therefore let them go or risk being called a racist. That isn't right, and it isn't fair to others who just maybe, aren't committing as much crime as other races. I mean, you call it racially disgusting because fewer whites were stopped than black or hispanic. But what about the fewer hispanics? I guess those guys are getting special treatment as well right. Point is, crime is crime and just because there are more people of a particular race being busted, that doesn't have to spell racism. Sure, there are probably racist people on the force. There are racist people everywhere. But you need to look at one simple thing. Were these people, whatever color, committing a crime or convicted of a crime after they were stopped or questioned? Because in the end, that is all that matters. Catching the bad guys. And if there happen to be more caught of a particular race than another, perhaps it's because they are committing more crime. It doesn't have to be just because of racism.

And one more thing, though I have to be quick. I do agree with you that the system is broken and police are not acting with the best interest of the people at heart. They have forgotten their duty to protect and serve the people, opting instead to protect and serve the system.
But the point is not that they are acting suspicious, but that they are simply being stopped for walking down the street. The article showed how an adult who runs a non-profit (clearly not someone that would be screaming "I'm a thug, arrest me") has changed his route home simply to avoid police harassment.

If they were all being stopped for being in violation of a law, I'd not say a thing about the races of the people stopped, but the fact is that these people are being harassed for looking like criminals, which means to most cops: young and colored. Plenty of white people in NYC steal and commit violent crimes too.

Just as I believe DUI checkpoints are unlawful (despite my hatred for anyone who drives drunk and binge drinking in general), I believe these stops are unlawful.

Police are supposed to serve and protect me, not investigate and harass me. If there's no evidence to lead them to believe I'm guilty of ALREADY committing a crime, a cop should have NO reason or right to stop me. Otherwise, it's just like the movie Minority Report (I know, but movies and books are just an easy way for people to relate to a topic), and a society where cops are expected to find criminals before they strike is very much a fascist place.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,824 posts, read 21,298,336 times
Reputation: 6523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug Life View Post
The AP is the most legitimate news source in this country.
So much for your credibility, the Associated Press is the most biased, lying rag on the market today. Nothing they print can be trusted. They lie more often than the New York Times, which is saying a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug Life View Post
There's a reason why every major newspaper and TV news station (including Fox) picks up stories from the AP.
Yea, its called "too damn lazy to find out the truth for themselves," so they repost AP lies (including Fox).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug Life View Post
And just because it's been done since the late 60s doesn't mean it's constitutional.
Actually, it does. Had you bothered to look up Terry v. Ohio, 392 US 1 (1968), as I suggested, you would know the Supreme Court has already determined Terry Stops are constitutional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug Life View Post
It is my right as an American Citizen to walk down the street without fear of being searched by the cops for no reason. How ANYONE can argue against this is beyond me.

DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN AN ORWELLIAN SOCIETY?
You clearly have no clue.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,537 posts, read 22,016,336 times
Reputation: 8745


The New York Police have been the most effective in the country at reducing crime. Terry Stops put an individual at a certain place at a certain time so that later if a crime is committed nearby they have people of interest.
If I stop someone in Haarlem at 2am he will probably be black or hispanic.
If I made the same stop on the Ginza he would probably be Japanese.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:31 PM
 
Location: SW Missouri
15,849 posts, read 32,091,448 times
Reputation: 22507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug Life View Post
This is a very scary article about how we've allowed the Police to become a Fascist force against the people. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091008/ap_on_re_us/us_stop_and_frisk - broken link)


Not only that, but it's done in such a racist manner that it's disgusting:
Last year, New York police stopped 531,159 people, more than five times the number in 2002. Fifty-one percent of those stopped were black, 32 percent Hispanic and 11 percent white.


11% of those who are stopped are white in a city that's 35% non-Hispanic White...shows that they are racially motivated.

Some people who are stopped file lawsuits against the city and speak out publicly. Most just accept it.

In Harlem, George Lucas changed his route home from work to avoid a stretch of Seventh Avenue, because he kept being stopped by the police.
"The inconvenience of walking out of my way still saves me the worry and frustration about being stopped," said Lucas, 28, director of a nonprofit.

Regardless, the constitution states:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
That is clearly being violated by the police in their random checks and we need to stand up before we're surrounded by cameras that monitor every move and don't even allow us freedom in our own homes (like in Demolition Man).
Well considering that the violent crimes that are commited in this country are OVERWHELMINGLY committed by non-white people, I'd say that they are justified.

If you can come up with statistics disproving what I just said to be true, please, please do so. But I know you cannot. So tough noogies.

20yrsinBranson
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